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This is such a sticky subject. And there’s always a lot of high emotion flying around whenever it gets drug up.
This sort of thing has boiled up several times on the forum now, and each time it seems to make people angry and drive them away. There has been the issue of painting PYOs with the gold detailing, the issue of airbrushing the PYOs and having them look ‘too much like production pieces,’ the issue of repaints, and now what people see as Windstone picking on a couple of individuals suddenly after allowing what they’re being ‘punished’ for go on for so long.
I can absolutely see both sides on this issue. I absolutely understand that Windstone needs to protect itself, and not really from these small time artists trying to kick off and get their start, but from big guys that might cause trouble later – because you can’t allow a precedent to be set. I understand this. But looking at it from the forum member’s point of view, Windstone is starting to look pretty ungracious. These people aren’t trying to undermine the company. They’re small time artists who have been inspired by Melody and who are trying to make their own dreams of making a living off of their art realized. They aren’t trying to compete, but they’ve gathered here at the forum with like minds and found their customer base, because lets face it – what kind of artists and fans alike are you going to attract here? Mostly fantasy.
While this has natural potential for competativeness, I think the way this is being handled – or at least the way it’s handling is being perceived – is a lot more hurtful to Windstone than it is helpful. You’ve created a community, and what’s going on now is creating a lot of dissent and misunderstanding. Windstone isn’t being seen as an encouraging force for artists and art, it’s being seen as a bully overly protective of things that most of these people just don’t see as Windstone having valid claim on.
I’m not saying that Windstone shouldn’t protect what it’s fought so long and hard to keep. But I think we need to put some quick and serious work into making the forum seem like a more welcoming and encouraging place, for artists and art fans alike. The general art forum is one of the gems of this community – people have come to see it as a place where creativity is nutured – I think the encouragment Melody has displayed to budding artists on the forum has endeared the company to a lot of people, and they’re seeing this as a confusing contradiction.
These artists aren’t big companies. Slapping them with a lawsuit, in my opinion, is harsh and unnecessary. Though I agree that Melody’s relationship with Purplecat has allowed the particular problems with her to escalate far beyond what they should have been. I think problems and people like this need something inbetween John and Melody – a balance between just letting them keep it up and threatening a lawsuit.
For the forum, I think it might be helpful if the actual individual problems that you’ve had with Purple cat and Keeproftheflocks are explained, with specific examples of what they’ve done that isn’t alright. Because a lot of people weren’t even aware there was any problem, and without any explanation of what’s happened, they just see artists leaving the forum and threads being removed for reasons not clearly explained.
And as Jen says, if there are things that you want forbidden on the forum, rules need to be written up quickly and clearly and posted and pointed out.I think if you are going to allow solicitation and sale of any artwork (or anything else) on the forum, it should be all or nothing. I think getting into whether it’s OOAK or semi-mass produced is just going to cause more anger and confusion, even if the boundaries seem clear to you. My own opinion is that selling / advertising shouldn’t be allowed at all, but that artists should be in no way discouraged to show examples of their own art – as Jen said in one of the threads, if there is interest in buying what they share, the artist can continue that dialogue with the interested party in PMs or on their own site.
I think there is A LOT of confusion about what is too close to a Windstone and what is not. And I honestly have to agree with most of them in that some of what is called ‘too close’ seems absolutely ridiculous. Especially combined with things I’ve pointed out to John that I’ve found on ebay – like one particular knock off gargoyle that was almost a straight copy of the roaring sentinal – that were ignored because it wasn’t worth going after. Those are direct ripoffs being sold en mass on ebay – those aren’t worth pursuing, but a few small time artists trying to get themselves going, who are openly in love with Melody and the Windstone company, who keep the community excited with their own works and possibly draw new people in – those people are worth going after when it does nothing much but anger your own fan base??
So I understand both sides, but I think we need to tread carefully here. What are we losing and what are we gaining with this?
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R TolkienSo long as you aren’t, I’m not! I’m just curious to see how things play out. I hope we can keep getting amazing prices like that! I think the only thing that still might concern me is how we do official PYOs in the future.
I guess the only thing I still need to know is the above – what do I do about my current commissions?? Do I finish up what I have left, or do I explain the situation to them and appologize? If I am allowed to finish the ones I’ve already taken on, I can spread them out inbetween official pieces.
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R TolkienP.S. CONGRATS ON THAT GRIFFIN, JEN!!! 😀 WOW!!
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R TolkienOkie dokie – I’m fine cutting out the commissions and concentrating on production pieces. What should I do about people who are already in line for commissions right now? I’ve got about 6 I think… And there are a whole bunch waiting on tabby tiger griffins, but I told all of them that there would be no promises on me actually doing those anyway, so I think I could get away with just canceling those.
…I have to say I’m just not sure how to spread Windstone out of the high end collectibles and into other categories for exposure… I think things like Melody’s comic might be good for that. People who might not be attracted to or know about Windstone’s products might get into Reptangle, and then Windstones are almost like merchendise for the comic for those folks. Something else that might have potential are cheap little things like decals, or even stationary. Am I thinking along the right lines? Not sure where Jen and I might come into this though…
I too very much want whatever we work out to be fair!! I did not mean to cause ripples. I just wasn’t aware of any problems with me taking commissions until my official stuff was sold.
I’m glad I could help with casting, and I’m happy to hear that the girls are doing well on their own. If there’s anything else I can do for the company, I hope you let me know."He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R TolkienI finally found it!! I don’t know why I couldn’t get in last night… so, HAI GUYS
Let’s see –
1. I’m with Jen in that I think there must be a balance on how many of these things we can sell and still keep the prices high. But if the stability of that balance depends even in part on the economy recovering, I think it’s tenuous at best. From what I’m hearing, I’m of the grim opinion that the economy will be in nasty shape for the next decade or so, and I think it will get worse before it gets any better.I think something in our favor is that there are many different sculpts – there are some people who are only really crazy about griffins, and some that wouldn’t spend a penny on griffins but will drop a few thousand for some really good dragons. So spreading out the types of critters we paint to give, for example, the dragon people a chance to recharge will be important I think.
2. Time to paint – I need to get back into a stable schedule before I can really say, but from how it’s gone so far I think I can probably work 6 hours a day with a couple days off a week. If it turns out we can actually sell a lot of them and make good money, I think I could prioritize around that and make more time – we, like everyone else, could use the income. 😉 Now I have to figure out what that would translate to in number of pieces, which I’m still not sure how to do yet as I’ll get quicker the more familiar I become with the sculpts – my very hesitant guess would be, at 6 hours a day… maybe 1 big piece a week or maybe 4 little pieces a week….?
3. Whether there was time to paint commissioned PYOs I think depends on the answer to number 1 – if we’re selling enough of the special painted production pieces to keep us busy, there won’t be time. If however there are lulls in listing them, or if we find we need to sell fewer to keep the value high, I will have time to pursue other sources of income – the PYO commissions are the easiest and most enjoyable option for me. I really enjoy taking on PYO commissions, myself! 🙂 I’ve only had one relatively picky customer, and she was ultimately easy enough to satisfy. And now she’s one of my most devoted regulars.
On the other hand, after having watched my tiger family sell on ebay, I’m reconsidering my desire to do PYO commissions – even without the fluke of that sitting griffin chick, if they can keep selling like that, I’m certainly making more dollars per hour on the production pieces than the PYOs. The PYOs don’t take me much less time to paint than the big guys.
So I guess, right now, my only real concern is back to number 1 – how many can we sell?? If there are times when I need to work to make more than the Windstone auctions can provide, the commissions are a really nice and stable option for me.— Though there are in fact plenty of other things I’ve been itching to try that have potential for bringing me income, and the only reason I haven’t really explored them is that I’ve been comfortable doing the PYOs. So actually, if they were no longer an option, I might find that something else does better for me anyway. Who knows! This is why I’m perfectly willing to go along with whatever you guys think is best.
I am, however, concerned about doing the PYOs on ebay… PYOs, even many of Jennifer’s, just don’t do all that well on ebay. Just from where I stand – getting a third of the selling price – has any special painted PYO gone for more than $550? I can’t remember. But they seem to hover around $350 – $500. I seem to remember a couple of Jen’s wolves going for a lot less – those auctions made me feel horrible! But if I can only expect $150 or so from the sale of a PYO dragon I’ve done special for Windstone, that’s considerably less than the $225 I get from one I’ve done on commission spending the same amount of time on.
I’m fine cutting out taking commissions, but the above being the case, I’m very wary of doing PYOs for Windstone’s ebay sales. I’m not sure how to get around that and still benefit from Ebay’s advertising value… I don’t think it’s a good idea to raise the minimum bid. And selling them as BIN might not work, and if it did I think it would kind of defeat the advertising purpose. There’s selling them in the store, which I think would work, but once again, no ebay advertising. :/back to the questions…
4. I think Jen answered this pretty completely. Some would value it more as an official Windstone piece, and some would care more about their own particular commission realized!5. …..job security?? XD I’ve never really considered it, myself. I’ve had it hammered into my my whole life that if I’m pursuing a career as an artist, I will never have any such thing as job security. So I’ve never really looked for it in this field. So, like Jen, I’m interested to hear what John and Melody have to say on potential job security. 😉
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R TolkienGriffinlover wrote:Arlla wrote:*gasp* so wait, you won him? Now I’m confused…
D: …you didn’t overspend TOO much, did you? 😳
Yes I won him 😀 I am not use to bidding on ebay I guess you can tell from my feedback number lol. So I did a stupid mistake of putting in a crazy price not thinking it would get up that high. when I saw it got up to 800 I was like “Oh no!” but I am happy that my parents have at least one of their chicks 😀 I will just say i learned my lesson on how not to bid ebay 😳
Eeek!! 😳 ….well unfortunately I can’t say I haven’t done the same thing! XD But I’m glad you got him. Congrats… and I hope he ends up worth it to you!!!
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien….oh my gosh I’m so giddy right now. If you really did win him, Griffinlover, CONGRATS!!! 😀 I’m thrilled that the family is sticking together…
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien*gasp* so wait, you won him? Now I’m confused…
D: …you didn’t overspend TOO much, did you? 😳
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R TolkienBlackdesertwind wrote:Congrats Arlla! You shouldn’t be surprized your painting techniques are great! :yes:
Aww, thanks 😀 I just wish I knew who it was and if it was actually a real bid… I never expected one of the chicks to go that high!!
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R TolkienGriffinlover wrote:$1225! 🙄 🙄 🙄 I don’t feel so good… it’s almost what I payed for the parents
🙁 Aww, sorry! …maybe you can still get the croucher…? 🙂
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R TolkienOoooh, I really hope it’s not that same problem of the fake bidder jacking up the price like we were having months ago…
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R TolkienHOMG 0_0 I just checked the auction and I about had a heart attack – who got him??? 😀
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien😳 Nope, Oregon didn’t quite work for my clan. We tried! I’m just glad that I could help get casting going despite that!
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R TolkienWell, casting is now in the hands of the girls up north! They’ll do a great job. And I think they’ve hired a painter now, too, so maybe some new stuff will be on it’s way soon to start filling the backorders. I had a couple young orientals going when I left, and they actually weren’t all that hard to scrape, so those should be coming along now. 🙂 Wish them luck!
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien
