where'd it go???

[sunhawk]

The Castle [Dave wrote:

“]

sunhawk wrote:

If I may join this debate late…

That was a long post, and I had to exercise great restraint in not quoting the entire thing, chopped up into fragments, each with “What you said!” appended by way of emphatic affirmation.

When we opened Astral Castle, one of the advertising schemes we came up with was to go around the mall parking lots and put flyers under the windshield wipers of the cars.

We were charmingly ignorant. Not only did we get repeatedly shooed off by the mall police, but later, on finding myself the victim of windshield wiper advertising, I realised just how irritating it is to get settled in your vehicle and then notice a flyer blocking your view. I’d never do that again, but I don’t regret doing it then because we did get people coming in to use their first-purchase coupon.

As you say, when you are starting out in a venture, you may do things that prove embarrassing, but probably no-one else remembers it as acutely as you do, so you may as well let it go. Which, by the twisting of logic, means you SHOULD be willing to try things even if you may later look back and think “How naive I was! How could I have done that?” Naivete can be a great strength in the arts.

Back in my late teens I had the urge to tell the world I existed, so I wrote and published a fanzine. I knew what fanzines were about, because I’d read a few – they were about science fiction and were rather boring compared to actually reading science fiction itself – but I used the vehicle to write instead about myself; what it was like being me. Then I mailed copies to everyone whose addresses I could glean from the amateur science fiction publications I could find. This was about a hundred people.

I’m sure most of the copies of my fanzine ended up in the trash, and I certainly got a few replies exclaiming the 1970s equivalent of “WTF?” but I also got a few people saying “Wow, send me the next issue!” and a couple of decent reviews from other people who, unbeknown to me at the time, also did fanzines that were more about themselves than about SF. A few years later I won “Best Fan Writer” and “Best Fanzine” awards at the British SF Association’s annual convention, and I’d still not written anything specifically about science fiction, because writing about science fiction bored me and anyway was too much like hard work.

If you are to be successful at anything it’s probably a good idea to err on the side of excessive self-promotion, take risks, and not worry too much if you occasionally find yourself breaking some unwritten rules. If you get told “Oh, you went too far, there,” then you perhaps back off and try something else somewhere else. Most people won’t hold it against you for being a bit over zealous.

Heh heh thanks! 😀

Yeah I know what you are talking about, that’s a good point that I don’t think anyone here would not be understanding about any of us getting a little carried away in our zeal. I try to be pragmatic if I get a poor response to some sort of self-promotion I’ve done, shrug and go “eh, on to the next thing!” because it’s not worth the energy to get upset over it, people like what they like or they don’t.

Congrats on the fanzine awards, I’ve thought about writing one myself but I never could figure out what I wanted it to be about lol

[Jennifer]

BRoS wrote:

isn’t it like an elephant being afraid of a little white mouse?

You know, until I started working for them and really got to know the company… I would have said the same thing! But I think this sort of thinking is a bit damaging. What makes someone an elephant, and what makes someone a mouse?

Sunhawk said it very well here:

Quote:

And it’s interesting how people’s attitudes can be relative towards their fellow artists depending on their perceived success. Some people’s comments here seemed to indicate there is a point where an artist is successful enough that they need to be treated differently than the rest of us, and that’s not anything new really, if I think about the point of this forum and that yes Melody is constantly treated differently, usually in a positive way because we all love her art! 🙂 But having had a few friends who are undeniably more successful selling their art, the interesting part comes from those who have an attitude that being successful makes those artists better able to coping with difficulties or that they have less difficulties.

Would you classify Windstone as being an elephant because of their success? What exactly makes someone a ‘success’?

Some would think of me as a successful artist, and they might (and some do) treat me differently because of it; expecting that somehow things are easier for me because of some imaginary status. Do I consider myself successful? Well… no– ideally being successful to me would being able to work just on the art that I have always wanted to, and make enough money to support myself. I’m no where close to that. So does that make me the elephant or the mouse?

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[Duld]

😮 gosh 🙂 shall I repeat myself, remember that I said that I understand both perspectives, I´ve been on both sides of that penny in my own circumstances,

tell me in what way it would be damaging, and I shall consider, I really meant no harm.

what makes them bigger than us is that they have employees, and even more employees than my fathers print shop has, and we serve a town of 14.000 people

and what makes them successful is that they, despite the employees, have stock problems, I’ve been waiting for months for some PYO’s, and their stock just isn’t increasing, hardly meeting demand, witch means they have to prioritize in the manifacturing

believe me, I have never had any bad experiences with them, I love their art, and I love this small community built around their art, I was only stating what this discussion looked like to me, and believe you me, I read it all

hence my former post
rule # 1 only Windstones are to be sold on this chat board, if you have a product other than windstones to sell, find other sites such as facebook, deviantarts or such sites, or through PM’s

I am truly truly very and humbly sorry if I offended anyone, (although I should have guessed it would, as I said on one other thread months ago, my tounge is hanging on a nerve, if I were a FRIENDS character, I would be Pheobe)

[Jennifer]

Hehe you didn’t do anything wrong! I was just curious.

I just think it’s ‘easy’ to look at Windstone as being a big company with a lot of power and money… and simply, they are not.

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[Duld]

well, by the looks of it, it is a small, but popular company, with some money, and a sprinkle of power

just out of curiosity, how many employees are currently at Windstones??

[sunhawk]

I think the only “power” they really have that has any meaningful impact on us is mainly that they own this website and this forum and thus they get to decide who can post what on it. And I can do the exact same thing on my website, that’s just the way it goes when you own a website. I had a friend a few years ago with a band website and some people showed up on her forum to badmouth the band. She deleted their posts and after they came back again to do the same thing, she banned them. Someone found out that one of the badmouthers had posted to her own blog, raging and ranting about being banned but my attitude was “Why would she let those comments stay?? On a website for a band she obviously loves?? Why were you posting there anyway???” and that’s the way it goes. Websites are not public domain, they are privately owned, and if one day Windstone decides “No talking about brussel sprouts!” then they have every right to enforce that, they own this space. Morally and for the sake of online manners, it would be great if they warned people, clearly posted “no posting about brussel sprouts”, but strictly speaking, they don’t HAVE to do anything they don’t want to.

I understand Windstone’s vigilance, because I’ve dealt with the sort of people who are desperate to hang on your coattails and flat out copy what you are doing because they want to make a quick buck. I’m not saying ANYONE here is like that but we’re familiar with the type, mostly from Ebay when you get people posting crappy cast copies of Windstones or making sculptures that flat-out copy the dragon bodies or whatnot. Mostly I do conventions and I’ve experienced that directly, especially back when I made 1″ buttons, we had one girl copying word for word our original designs and when pressed about it, she said “Well you guys are doing so well, I didn’t think it would matter!” which was hilarious, as if we were rich as astronauts selling 1″ buttons for 3 for $5 sort of thing. When we started out, somehow we were the only button makers in town and I think that was the only time we made any kind of profit, and with each year that another competing button maker came on board, we made steadily less until it was obvious we were going to have to branch out or not make back our table fee and pay each other something for our time and efforts. People might think that “inferior” competition makes no impact, but I think when we talk about nearly the same product, it really does. I’m not saying it’s always a bad impact, but I think it’s there all the same.

[Jennifer]

sunhawk wrote:

…we had one girl copying word for word our original designs and when pressed about it, she said “Well you guys are doing so well, I didn’t think it would matter!” which was hilarious, as if we were rich as astronauts selling…

Okay this is a great example! It’s easy to look at Windstone, the auctions, etc. and think “golly they are pulling in a MINT, surely competition can’t hurt them!”.
The problem is that you never know the whole picture. I am willing to bet that despite the good auction prices, with the cost of running a business and all the expenses they have, Windstone may well not be making any net profit right now…

Before I get myself in trouble over speculating such things, I will talk about my personal experience, totally unrelated to Windstone. I have had folks copying me for years, sometimes outright, and sell what they copy. Sometimes it is subtle, sometimes not. And often their understanding is that because I am somewhat well known (I guess they base this on my pageviews on Deviantart? Otherwise it beats me!) that I must be very successful and it would do no harm to me to ‘move in on’ my business, usually to the same customers that I have. The part that is below the surface that most don’t realize, because I don’t actively make it known, is that I’m struggling to make ends meet! They see me make sales, and hop on the ‘bandwagon’ knowing what stuff of mine sells. This is part of life and it will always happen, and I do accept that… and truly oftentimes people don’t try to hurt me or my business intentionally… but it makes it no less difficult for me to deal with.

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[Jennifer]

BRoS wrote:

well, by the looks of it, it is a small, but popular company, with some money, and a sprinkle of power

just out of curiosity, how many employees are currently at Windstones??

I believe it is less than a dozen. I am not totally sure.

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[sunhawk]

Jennifer wrote:

sunhawk wrote:

…we had one girl copying word for word our original designs and when pressed about it, she said “Well you guys are doing so well, I didn’t think it would matter!” which was hilarious, as if we were rich as astronauts selling…

Okay this is a great example! It’s easy to look at Windstone, the auctions, etc. and think “golly they are pulling in a MINT, surely competition can’t hurt them!”.
The problem is that you never know the whole picture. I am willing to bet that despite the good auction prices, with the cost of running a business and all the expenses they have, Windstone may well not be making any net profit right now…

Before I get myself in trouble over speculating such things, I will talk about my personal experience, totally unrelated to Windstone. I have had folks copying me for years, sometimes outright, and sell what they copy. Sometimes it is subtle, sometimes not. And often their understanding is that because I am somewhat well known (I guess they base this on my pageviews on Deviantart? Otherwise it beats me!) that I must be very successful and it would do no harm to me to ‘move in on’ my business, usually to the same customers that I have. The part that is below the surface that most don’t realize, because I don’t actively make it known, is that I’m struggling to make ends meet! They see me make sales, and hop on the ‘bandwagon’ knowing what stuff of mine sells. This is part of life and it will always happen, and I do accept that… and truly oftentimes people don’t try to hurt me or my business intentionally… but it makes it no less difficult for me to deal with.

if I may speculate as well, I think that for some people, they think that technical skill equals financial success. They see your standard of quality is high and assume that it must reflect sales, because who wouldn’t want to buy such nice things? In a way, it’s a compliment but it still doesn’t reflect reality, the sad fact that even the really talented don’t always make it in terms in making a living from their artwork, just due to the way our society runs.

And every time I see that calculating look in someone’s eyes, trying to figure out how copy something I’m doing that they think is worth copying, I want to take their hand and tell them that this is a dead-end path. There is only so far you can go focusing on mimicking someone else’s style or product, it’s just not as rewarding artistically and they’ll have to find out the hard way that there is no mythical magic product out there that will have people throwing money at them. I remember reading in an art business blog that it’s always better to create a want than try to fill an existing need. And there is no way to avoid the ten, twenty years of effort to get where some artists are lucky to be, because those artists worked their asses off. You can’t skip that step, it will always show; the lack of informed creation, be it wonky anatomy, sloppy paint jobs, messy lineart, bubbly casting, etc.

[Duld]

sunhawk wrote:

I think the only “power” they really have that has any meaningful impact on us is mainly that they own this website and this forum and thus they get to decide who can post what on it. And I can do the exact same thing on my website, that’s just the way it goes when you own a website.

I agree in a way, BUT I think that the POWER they have is, that they are making an impact on us regulars on this thread every day, bringing people that wouldn’t get to know each other under normal circumstances together, in a way Windstones are like a religion, everything mythical that we buy or consider to buy is compared to them, and we love the makers for their creations that bring joy to our eyes, that is their power 😀 oh sorry I didn’t mean to get mushy

Jennifer wrote:

BRoS wrote:

well, by the looks of it, it is a small, but popular company, with some money, and a sprinkle of power

just out of curiosity, how many employees are currently at Windstones??

I believe it is less than a dozen. I am not totally sure.

ok, a few people, interesting, the print shop has 3 full timers and 2 part timers
small buisnesses are harder to run than the big timers I think, I bid Melody good luck 🙂

[BipolarBear]

BRoS wrote:

I agree in a way, BUT I think that the POWER they have is, that they are making an impact on us regulars on this thread every day, bringing people that wouldn’t get to know each other under normal circumstances together, in a way Windstones are like a religion,

Whoah! We’ve been joking about starting a cult for a while…didn’t know how close we were. I don’t think it has to do with success as much as having a product line, becoming your own business and then using our forum as a marketplace. We’re not cursing every artist out there to fail. We actually want people to succeed. My aunt loves art, everyone’s art and if you are talented and can put beautiful things into the world we want you to. But if you are manufacturing and selling figurines and art, it’s time for you to make your own site and do your own marketing. It’s what comes with being a business.

I would help but I am just to tired to get out of bed today~
Engaged to a Weasel

[Duld]

hahaha, 😆 that is also debatable, should you consider launching your own site, or find a site to sell on, that is something to consider, like purplecat did, she launched her own site, and I am on a deal with another site that sells from multible artists with my jewlery, they’re currently out of my stock (not others) but that is really something that should be done,

if we think about this matter, this thread is an “ART DISCUSSION” so really there shouldn’t be any selling at all over here,

there is another thread on here called “MARKET PLACE” and it’s meant for selling only windstones,

so if we think about this, the lines we have to dance around are here, but they are fuzzy and some of us don’t know when we are on each side of it 😀

but here is a question, can we advertise where we are selling at all?? or discuss if prizes are fair or not?? if the purpose is made clear,

here we can at least ask for some advise of improvement and help if needed, (and of course, show off)

[BipolarBear]

BRoS wrote:

hahaha, 😆 that is also debatable, should you consider launching your own site, or find a site to sell on, that is something to consider, like purplecat did, she launched her own site, and I am on a deal with another site that sells from multible artists with my jewlery, they’re currently out of my stock (not others) but that is really something that should be done,

if we think about this matter, this thread is an “ART DISCUSSION” so really there shouldn’t be any selling at all over here,

there is another thread on here called “MARKET PLACE” and it’s meant for selling only windstones,

so if we think about this, the lines we have to dance around are here, but they are fuzzy and some of us don’t know when we are on each side of it 😀

but here is a question, can we advertise where we are selling at all?? or discuss if prizes are fair or not?? if the purpose is made clear,

here we can at least ask for some advise of improvement and help if needed, (and of course, show off)

Good questions I’ll ask the higher ups. I think there was supposed to be a rules post but it found its way to the island from lost and is currently somewhere in the 1970’s floating around the pacific. We need to have a new rule area thing.

I would help but I am just to tired to get out of bed today~
Engaged to a Weasel

[49ER]

Ok I am not an artist, but this thread is confusing me—I have seen a lot of PYO dragons or wolves, that were so gorgeous, that I would like to commission those artists to do paint something for me someday. Is this ruling designed to delete these PYO painted sculptures from being shown or sold on this forum? After all, Windstone sells PYO sculptures, and even has tutorials for painting them, so why would there be a problem if somebody sells these on their forum? Or is this relating to other kinds of artwork unrelated to PYO’s? :scratch:

[KoishiiKitty]

49ER wrote:

Ok I am not an artist, but this thread is confusing me—I have seen a lot of PYO dragons or wolves, that were so gorgeous, that I would like to commission those artists to do paint something for me someday. Is this ruling designed to delete these PYO painted sculptures from being shown or sold on this forum? After all, Windstone sells PYO sculptures, and even has tutorials for painting them, so why would there be a problem if somebody sells these on their forum? Or is this relating to other kinds of artwork unrelated to PYO’s? :scratch:

the windstone PYO’s are ok. This website is for all windstone related things which includes showing, buying, selling any windstones(pyos too). So this would not affect any pyo’s painted by people or the people that paint them.

The issue is over personal art by other artists. there has been some confusion since we had no guidlines really about posting our own art, some of us including me were selling our own art through the forum here in the general art section….but now there is confusion about is that really ok? what as far as selling or advertising our art here is not ok? posting art we intend to sell on another website but would like to share here, is that ok?

[Author]

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