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Hi guys!
I personally didn’t really realize this was a problem till now. Since I am often the only moderator, my ignorance in this matter has led to confusion as seen here as I have not ‘policed’ this in the past. For this I apologize! As a business still fairly new to the internet, it has been a learning experience for Windstone as well, and I dare say that myself and possibly the other Windstone staff did not forsee this sort of issue coming up, and therefore didn’t really have a plan for dealing with it. We, the staff, are talking now and working out a set of rules that we hope are both fair to artists and creativity (which we do want to encourage!) and Windstone as a company.
Please bear with us as we examine this issue and try to make things fair for everyone! 🙂
Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.comI understand, but it’s at a point now it’s really just splitting hairs. It’s getting a little silly, and the terminology “PYO” or “Paint Your Own” isn’t copyrighted from what I’m aware of. There are dozens of companies that have had “paint your own” sculptures even before Windstone ever had them. I’m not trying to be difficult, I haven’t been a victim of anything myself, but I have communicated with several artists who feel very sad, hurt, and generally are upset and even disinterested in their art all together now regaurding some of the tactics Windstone has used to protect it’s artwork. It’s borderline harassing… I’m just thinking it’s starting to get a little ridiculous. It’s just upsetting is all.
I’m actually relieved that I never posted any of my artwork up on this forum, but then again, I’m also concerned that I would need to be really leery if I ever wanted to… and fearful of dealing with the reprocustions if something I did was considered to be “infringing” since so much stuff I don’t understand why is infringing, apparently is according to Windstone. It’s just unconfortable, and really, I’ll quote Koishii’s comment above, “not fun anymore”
Windstone isn’t a company any artist wants to have on their bad side. They have made it perfectly clear they rule the roost for fantasy figurines and further more paint styles/tecniques/terminology/ and other areas of what I have no idea existed in copyright law. It has almost damaged my faith in the company seeing all these upset and struggling artist getting pulled down like this. It’s just kind of sad… We’re all a big reason Windstone has boomed like it has and it’s a rotten way to show appreciation. If the artists can’t sell their art, they can’t buy Windstones. I know it shouldn’t bother me, and they are just trying to protect their rights, but honestly, I don’t EVER see Windstone being a company that has anything to fear as far some other artist putting them out of business.
It’s just my humble opinion, I’m not mad or anyhting, just a little emotional for my fellow artists.
Got a busted Windstone?
drag0nfeathersdesign@gmail.com
*OPEN for repairs**SEEKING GRAILS*
Arc-en-ciel Emperor
Siphlophis Male Dragon
Calypso Hatching Empress
Ivory Moss Sitting Baby Kirin
Tattoo Mother Kirin
Emerald Tabby Male Griffin
Tie Dye + Orion Hatching Royalty
Indigo Rockfish + Flame Tabby Little Rock Dragons
Dragon Quail + Obsidian Frost Old Warriors
Betta Sun Dragon + Male Dragon
Dreamscape, Orion, Poison Dart, Fireberry, Spangler + Tigerberry Dragonsdrag0nfeathers wrote:It’s just my humble opinion, I’m not mad or anyhting, just a little emotional for my fellow artists.
For what it’s worth, that’s how I feel too. Not that my artwork’s good enough to sell or I even want to do so, (and it seems like strictly 2d artists aren’t having much trouble) but when I see this ‘trade dress’ being bandied about in such a way that it seems to be crushing the dreams and works of the next generation of fantasy sculpting artists…well, just because it’s ‘legal’ doesn’t make it ethical, and it’s really distressing me to see this happening multiple times with different artists.
I saw so much stuff for sale on this thread over the course of the last year and a half that it never occured to me it wasn’t being ‘policed’ the way the other subforums are.
Drag0n:
I only know of two artists here that have had any problems– am I missing something? o_o There are tens of thousands of artists out there, and even within Windstone’s niche (fantasy collectibles) there is a ton of stuff out there that Windstone doesn’t have a problem with.
Terms like “all these artists” are confusing me. Maybe you can PM me?
Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.comI’m not about to argue with a mod, so maybe I ought to just go as well.
Got a busted Windstone?
drag0nfeathersdesign@gmail.com
*OPEN for repairs**SEEKING GRAILS*
Arc-en-ciel Emperor
Siphlophis Male Dragon
Calypso Hatching Empress
Ivory Moss Sitting Baby Kirin
Tattoo Mother Kirin
Emerald Tabby Male Griffin
Tie Dye + Orion Hatching Royalty
Indigo Rockfish + Flame Tabby Little Rock Dragons
Dragon Quail + Obsidian Frost Old Warriors
Betta Sun Dragon + Male Dragon
Dreamscape, Orion, Poison Dart, Fireberry, Spangler + Tigerberry DragonsA few thoughts on this.
We very much share your concerns about discouraging the sharing of artwork. I think that the thing that is getting overlooked, and that I have tried to make clear, is that we have had no real problem with members sharing their original artwork. But is it right for someone to advertise their paint your own sculpture business on the windstone forum? These pieces are for sale on a comercial website with the intention of them being mass produced. This was not an example of the sharing of artwork. Should we allow the advertisement of cars, real estate, computers, or any other commodity? I think we all agree that won’t fly. When a piece of artwork becomes a production commodity does it belong here? How about Harmony Kingdom, Sandicast or any other commercially produced artwork? Wouldn’t we need to include the commercial work of their artists?
Adaneth wrote:drag0nfeathers wrote:It’s just my humble opinion, I’m not mad or anyhting, just a little emotional for my fellow artists.
For what it’s worth, that’s how I feel too. Not that my artwork’s good enough to sell or I even want to do so, (and it seems like strictly 2d artists aren’t having much trouble) but when I see this ‘trade dress’ being bandied about in such a way that it seems to be crushing the dreams and works of the next generation of fantasy sculpting artists…well, just because it’s ‘legal’ doesn’t make it ethical, and it’s really distressing me to see this happening multiple times with different artists.
I saw so much stuff for sale on this thread over the course of the last year and a half that it never occured to me it wasn’t being ‘policed’ the way the other subforums are.
No, it wasn’t really being “policed” very well and maybe that was contributing to the misunderstandings here. There is a line somewhere that must be observed and, although we know that we cannot always trust the forum to chart its own perfect course, we also don’t want to police it at all. But sometimes it needs a little correction…
We have always tried to make an exceptional effort to inform emerging artists in how to create artwork that will hold up to the tests of originality and be successful in the marketplace. And we will continue to inform anyone who asks. We have both spent many hours of our lives consulting with strangers in matters of business and the production of artwork. We in no way feel we own the marketplace but, because she has never taken a thing from others, we do own the rights to Melody’s artwork and that is the important lesson. As an aside: I do think that this has created a healty exchange and debate that will help us to try and articulate some kind of policy that is acceptable to all, and restores a level of comfort so we can all get back to work, be it art or business in general.
John wrote:A few thoughts on this.
We very much share your concerns about discouraging the sharing of artwork. I think that the thing that is getting overlooked, and that I have tried to make clear, is that we have had no real problem with members sharing their original artwork. But is it right for someone to advertise their paint your own sculpture business on the windstone forum? These pieces are for sale on a comercial website with the intention of them being mass produced. This was not an example of the sharing of artwork. Should we allow the advertisement of cars, real estate, computers, or any other commodity? I think we all agree that won’t fly. When a piece of artwork becomes a production commodity does it belong here? How about Harmony Kingdom, Sandicast or any other commercially produced artwork? Wouldn’t we need to include the commercial work of their artists?
can you define what you mean by Sharing artwork?
for instance, how i see the word, If I share something, I do not make any money on it what so ever. It is posted to “share”, so people can share in seeing it, or I may give it as a gift..to share with some one…but no money is exchanged for it.
But the way you word your sentence gives me the impression that personal pieces of art as individual being sold( for example, I paint a water color, I sell the water color…but I do not sell copies of it)may be considered ok, as apposed to selling “production” of an art piece.
it sounds slightly confusing.
KoishiiKitty wrote:John wrote:A few thoughts on this.
We very much share your concerns about discouraging the sharing of artwork. I think that the thing that is getting overlooked, and that I have tried to make clear, is that we have had no real problem with members sharing their original artwork. But is it right for someone to advertise their paint your own sculpture business on the windstone forum? These pieces are for sale on a comercial website with the intention of them being mass produced. This was not an example of the sharing of artwork. Should we allow the advertisement of cars, real estate, computers, or any other commodity? I think we all agree that won’t fly. When a piece of artwork becomes a production commodity does it belong here? How about Harmony Kingdom, Sandicast or any other commercially produced artwork? Wouldn’t we need to include the commercial work of their artists?
can you define what you mean by Sharing artwork?
for instance, how i see the word, If I share something, I do not make any money on it what so ever. It is posted to “share”, so people can share in seeing it, or I may give it as a gift..to share with some one…but no money is exchanged for it.
But the way you word your sentence gives me the impression that personal pieces of art as individual being sold( for example, I paint a water color, I sell the water color…but I do not sell copies of it)may be considered ok, as apposed to selling “production” of an art piece.
it sounds slightly confusing.
I don’t know either. We (the staff) are debating this and whether a senseable line can be drawn that won’t get abused or misinturprited. Sharing one of a kind artwork with forum members (and whoever else views the forum) certainly means letting them view it but if we say it’s OK to sell off the site then are we going to leave the door open a little wider for members to create links to comercial sites that will, one day, start the problem all over again? Maybe we should just set up a gallery for the sale of original art and really keep a lid on any attempts to use it or the forum for comercial gain. And by that I mean real businesses with websites or stores. ???
Well, I think completely banning the right to sell their OOAK artwork is going to be a little drastic (for example) many members utilize this are to sell their crafts of all sorts. Am I glad? HELL YEAH! I have so many cool tid bits I’ve got only from meeting fellow artisit on this site, but there needs to be a line drawn when it becomes like soliciting I agree.
Got a busted Windstone?
drag0nfeathersdesign@gmail.com
*OPEN for repairs**SEEKING GRAILS*
Arc-en-ciel Emperor
Siphlophis Male Dragon
Calypso Hatching Empress
Ivory Moss Sitting Baby Kirin
Tattoo Mother Kirin
Emerald Tabby Male Griffin
Tie Dye + Orion Hatching Royalty
Indigo Rockfish + Flame Tabby Little Rock Dragons
Dragon Quail + Obsidian Frost Old Warriors
Betta Sun Dragon + Male Dragon
Dreamscape, Orion, Poison Dart, Fireberry, Spangler + Tigerberry DragonsJennifer wrote:Drag0n:
I only know of two artists here that have had any problems– am I missing something? o_o There are tens of thousands of artists out there, and even within Windstone’s niche (fantasy collectibles) there is a ton of stuff out there that Windstone doesn’t have a problem with.
Terms like “all these artists” are confusing me. Maybe you can PM me?
I know that only a few people have actually run into problems, but, well…I think the trouble is that a lot of us are scared that we will. I know that it’s made me hesitant to post my artwork here…because I’ve gotten comments elsewhere that it “reminds people of Windstone” (which used to make me preen, but now just makes me cringe–it’s both a wonderful compliment and a death blow at once). The similarities are entirely coincidental, and half the time I can’t see them at all…but what seems to matter is if other people see them. When I see people whose work reminds me even less of Windstone than my own get into legal tangles, I’m honestly terrified. I probably haven’t gotten into any trouble yet simply because I don’t sell, but I worry that if I did (and…well, I could really use the money…) there’d be a lawyer at my door.
I understand that Windstone needs to protect itself, it’s just that protecting itself from companies is one thing…protecting itself from individual artists is something different. Of course you don’t want Harmony Kingdom posting their wares…they’re a competing company. But is somebody with some clay and a bucket of hydrostone in their basement really a competing company? (presumably, if one of us ever actually inherits a factory, common courtesy dictates we make our own forum and leave ^_~ ).
But, on the other hand I do understand that thats an awfully complicated line to try to draw. 🙁
I agree with Tally. That is one SCARY issue.
But here is a point of been thinking on, and something I’ve started to worry about.First of all, I am still young at the whole artist thing. I’ve not had much first hand experience being around peers, but through DA I’ve grown with a LOT of artists, watched them grown, exchanged info and understandings with. There are some that get snappy about their art, but for the most that I have talked to, we recognize different shared idea/ methods/ some times a look…but most really evaluate whether it is made into something unique even though there is a similarity, or is it infringing.
But here is different. You are not just and “artist” site, it is a business site….and the members are not just other artists….but also hardcore collectors who i am sure, first and formost would want to help protect the business. I can’t help but wonder if, because of the fact that this is the Windstone site, that it has developed the thinking to look at a piece of art, especially when posted on here, and wonder first,” does that look like windstone. could this person be infringing on windstone.” instead of really trying to look at the art for what it is first. And then of course when you have people saying,” it kinda reminds me of windstone..” well, it is not fun.
There are artist I have known and seen that have drawn things that strike me as having certain similarities to Windstone stuff at times, but When I look at the individual art, it is different enough that I don’t look it and think,”ah yeah, windstone.” And yet, I DO know there are some people who would look at that one single part on the piece of art and say,” hay…..hay….that is to close to windstone.” just because.
While sharing art here is fun…would it promote this? a search for,”is this person copying windstone.” instead of promoting the enjoyment of art. Trying to stop “potential” problems….before knowing if they really would be a problem….
IT is a very scary thought for some of us.
( I hope that was not too awefully confusing)
I gues the question is, is it even possible to balance your obligation to protect your compony WITH OUT hurting other artists if you allow the posting of original art here? I am not saying it is impossible, but certianly at a quick thought over it, it seems like there are likey to be a lot of complications.Tally Mark wrote:Jennifer wrote:Drag0n:
I only know of two artists here that have had any problems– am I missing something? o_o There are tens of thousands of artists out there, and even within Windstone’s niche (fantasy collectibles) there is a ton of stuff out there that Windstone doesn’t have a problem with.
Terms like “all these artists” are confusing me. Maybe you can PM me?
I know that only a few people have actually run into problems, but, well…I think the trouble is that a lot of us are scared that we will. I know that it’s made me hesitant to post my artwork here…because I’ve gotten comments elsewhere that it “reminds people of Windstone” (which used to make me preen, but now just makes me cringe–it’s both a wonderful compliment and a death blow at once).
I see, and understand! Thank you for your insight. It is something to think about!
Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.comKoishiiKitty wrote:I can’t help but wonder if, because of the fact that this is the Windstone site, that it has developed the thinking to look at a piece of art, especially when posted on here, and wonder first,” does that look like windstone. could this person be infringing on windstone.” instead of really trying to look at the art for what it is first. And then of course when you have people saying,” it kinda reminds me of windstone..” well, it is not fun.
That’s actually an interesting perspective. It might actually be true that because we’re on a windstone site, we’re already looking at things through “Windstone colored glasses” so to speak…that is, we’re viewing things in terms of how much they resemble windstone, way more than we would on a site that was totally unrelated to Windstone.
I was reading through another thread this discussion has spread to (Koishiis), and found an interesting point by Nambroth–that Windstone is really a small company eking out a living amongst great big companies. I hadn’t really thought of it way. See, from our perspective…Windstone is huge. They have a factory. I have a box of clay on my desk. ^_~ So, to us, you’re a great big scary entity…and the thought of a lawyer coming my way makes me feel kind of hopeless, because there’s no way I’d afford a lawyer at all. I wouldn’t stand a chance. It’s all a matter of perspective I guess. what it seems like is the trouble is while Windstone fights to hold its own against the big guys, us yet-littler guys end up cowering in fear of it.
Also, I can’t speak for everyone, but well…I suspect that the “Trade dress” is what stings the most, just from what I’ve observed of late (shameful lurker that I am). Because if I come up with something totally on my own, but somebody ends up thinking it looks like windstone…I could get told no, I can’t use that any more. And it’s natural for artists to then get defensive over their ideas (because lets face it, people come up with overlapping ideas in art all the time, but they’re still *our* ideas). But more than that, it feels a little…stifling. The trade dress thing is so complicated and indefinable, it’s impossible to tell if you’re treading on toes until you’ve already done it, unless you leave a gigantic swath of creative space untapped (eg, “will I get in trouble for using wedge shaped heads or fancy paint jobs? I guess I should use neither…”).
Anyway, I’m really not trying to criticize–I think I can see better now where you’re coming from. It doesn’t seem like there’s an easy answer–windstone must protect itself. but independent artists (feeling hopeless and defenseless in the face of windstone’s mighty wrath ^_~ ) will naturally feel hurt about it.
So um…okay, i’m done rambling. ^_^;;
I’ve been reading and re-reading… I definately don’t want to step on any toes; I’ve been trying to come up with an analogy that might help us understand a little better. The only thing I can think of is what happens with private property and public domain. My intent is NOT to offend, I’m just trying to get my head wrapped around this dilemma. So, here goes…
Let’s say that Windstone owns a piece of property – they have purchased it and the rights to it. The property happens to be next to a public property, say a park or walking trails. For people in “town” it is quicker to get to the park by cutting across the Windstone property rather than going around it. Eventually, if Windstone doesn’t protect it’s land from people crossing it, they will lose that bit of land; it will have become part of the public domain by default.
For our artists – I understand the scary-ness, it’s part of the reason I’ve only posted a few photographs and none of my other artwork. I’ve only sold a few items myself and none since the boys were born (not a lot of time to draw at the moment). I don’t have a personal website (yet) but would like to share (maybe “show” would be a better descriptive?) what I’ve been working on. I would be very unhappy if we lost the ability to see our forums’ artisans works. There are so many talented folks here in all different levels of “learning” and accomplishment. Are we influenced by Melody’s work? Probably to some extent. Is that bad or wrong? I don’t believe so since it’s in a genre that we all love, else we wouldn’t be forum members. I do think Koishii is right about us being “finely tuned” to Windstone-type characteristics in other sculpts or paintings or drawings. The artists have no intention of plagiarizing Melody’s work but there are only so many poses and colors, head shapes and wing shapes that there are bound to be similarities just by coincidence (in writing it’s called the collective conscience) where, for some reason, a lot of people have the same ideas or concepts.
So do words fall into the category of “trade dress”? Did I violate Windstone’s copyright when I wrote “Poad Ode” for Ski’s pink wedding Poad? I don’t know… Was it inspired by Melody’s work? Most definately! Did I ask permission of Windstone to use their concept in my work? No, I didn’t. I didn’t even stop and think that I might need to; I just wrote it…
Don’t know if any of this makes sense – I hope I didn’t make it more confusing 😳
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