Animal Breeding discussion

[Jessie]

ugh….. with so many homeless pets out there that could be adopted, it just blows my mind that people still have to buy “special” pets like this. 😡 i just can’t stand it.

[Elizabeth]

daydreamer wrote:

ugh….. with so many homeless pets out there that could be adopted, it just blows my mind that people still have to buy “special” pets like this. 😡 i just can’t stand it.

Actually its saving them from being made in to coats. The left over foxes are sold to fur breeders.

[Lupin]

I’ve “researched” this “Line” of domestic foxes for nearly 2 decades (yes I’m only 30 if that tells you anything) & the stuff that goes with it(Snap may have seen me with some of my Genetic researching once in a while). Every couple months I start hunting more info, but also with other captive/domestic lines.

Whatever else (& I’m going to steer clear of it) the Importation part is a MAJOR part of why they must be sold to North American’s Fixed. That way there is little to no chance that they will escape & interbreed with “Native” North American Fox species, muddying up the Gene Pool. Yeah look at “Invasive Species” to see that fun.

Dragon & Ruffian- These being Fixed we may be able to get Permits to keep them, even here in Alberta (Yeah I’ve been looking it up 😆 ). But if I move back “Home” I’m getting one, weather from the Russian Programs or from my Uncle who breeds/rescues them. I was promised one way back when(I think it was ’88, could have been earlier), & the only reason I didn’t bring my Kit(s) home was because I was a Little Kid, & my Mom had say on my Pets.

[Jessie]

Griffinlover wrote:

Actually its saving them from being made in to coats. The left over foxes are sold to fur breeders.

“Saving” them? Why are they breeding them in the FIRST place is more my problem. Just to sell as a novelty pet?

(okay, maybe you guys already went over it, i just don’t have tons of time to read each post right now)

[Lupin]

daydreamer wrote:

Griffinlover wrote:

Actually its saving them from being made in to coats. The left over foxes are sold to fur breeders.

“Saving” them? Why are they breeding them in the FIRST place is more my problem. Just to sell as a novelty pet?

(okay, maybe you guys already went over it, i just don’t have tons of time to read each post right now)

Hehehe
I was going to not bother with this but I will touch a bit.
No they weren’t originally bred for Pets (& probably still aren’t, it is after all a Russian experiment). What happened was they tried to breed Foxes that were more Docile & easier to handle for the Russian Fox Fur Trade. However they discovered that when they tried to bred them to be friendlier that their Fur colour/pattern is actually highly linked to the genes responsible for Personality. Better Colour for Fur Trade from more vicious Foxes. But the friendlier ones often ended up in the Pied patterns. They also discovered that Foxes are incredibly receptive to Tameness breeding, just again for a Fur Trade that coat colour is a HUGE problem.
So in Russia they’re trying to find a way to separate out & build up the more docile fur animals.

[Kujacker]

daydreamer wrote:

Griffinlover wrote:

Actually its saving them from being made in to coats. The left over foxes are sold to fur breeders.

“Saving” them? Why are they breeding them in the FIRST place is more my problem. Just to sell as a novelty pet?

(okay, maybe you guys already went over it, i just don’t have tons of time to read each post right now)

Um yeah. “Saving them”. That may be the case for the foxes… (not really because they’re still breeding them, are they not? They could stop) but think about the dogs and cats. If people didn’t buy from breeders then could you guess the number of animals that wouldn’t be killed in pounds?
In my entire life, we bought one animal from a breeder. My persian cat. I love him to death, and I wouldn’t trade him for the world but think about it… that’s one animal in the pound that is no longer living because we bought from a breeder. Also, in some places there is a HUGE problem with stray dogs and cats. Huge.

Also, for those saying ” if there weren’t any breeders animals wouldn’t exist!”… really? T___T No one breeds coyotes or javelinas but damn, I see those daily and in the case of the javelinas, they’re actually a large problem. Animals don’t need humans to do what their instincts tell them to do. If you think humans are that important, I’m sorry.
I do agree that SOME animals need human aid to attempt to bring numbers back (things like tigers or pandas, or otherwise endangered species). Humans effed everything up for them in the first place though. If humans didn’t do whatever in the first place, then those animals wouldn’t need human aid now.

[Kujacker]

daydreamer wrote:

Griffinlover wrote:

Actually its saving them from being made in to coats. The left over foxes are sold to fur breeders.

“Saving” them? Why are they breeding them in the FIRST place is more my problem. Just to sell as a novelty pet?

(okay, maybe you guys already went over it, i just don’t have tons of time to read each post right now)

Um yeah. “Saving them”. That may be the case for the foxes… (not really because they’re still breeding them, are they not? They could stop) but think about the dogs and cats. If people didn’t buy from breeders then could you guess the number of animals that wouldn’t be killed in pounds?
In my entire life, we bought one animal from a breeder. My persian cat. I love him to death, and I wouldn’t trade him for the world but think about it… that’s one animal in the pound that is no longer living because we bought from a breeder. Also, in some places there is a HUGE problem with stray dogs and cats. Huge.

Also, for those saying ” if there weren’t any breeders animals wouldn’t exist!”… really? T___T No one breeds coyotes or javelinas but damn, I see those daily and in the case of the javelinas, they’re actually a large problem. Animals don’t need humans to do what their instincts tell them to do. If you think humans are that important, I’m sorry.
I do agree that SOME animals need human aid to attempt to bring numbers back (things like tigers or pandas, or otherwise endangered species). Humans effed everything up for them in the first place though. If humans didn’t do whatever in the first place, then those animals wouldn’t need human aid now.

[Rachel]

Kujacker wrote:

daydreamer wrote:

Griffinlover wrote:

Actually its saving them from being made in to coats. The left over foxes are sold to fur breeders.

“Saving” them? Why are they breeding them in the FIRST place is more my problem. Just to sell as a novelty pet?

(okay, maybe you guys already went over it, i just don’t have tons of time to read each post right now)

Um yeah. “Saving them”. That may be the case for the foxes… (not really because they’re still breeding them, are they not? They could stop) but think about the dogs and cats. If people didn’t buy from breeders then could you guess the number of animals that wouldn’t be killed in pounds?
In my entire life, we bought one animal from a breeder. My persian cat. I love him to death, and I wouldn’t trade him for the world but think about it… that’s one animal in the pound that is no longer living because we bought from a breeder. Also, in some places there is a HUGE problem with stray dogs and cats. Huge.

Also, for those saying ” if there weren’t any breeders animals wouldn’t exist!”… really? T___T No one breeds coyotes or javelinas but damn, I see those daily and in the case of the javelinas, they’re actually a large problem. Animals don’t need humans to do what their instincts tell them to do. If you think humans are that important, I’m sorry.
I do agree that SOME animals need human aid to attempt to bring numbers back (things like tigers or pandas, or otherwise endangered species). Humans effed everything up for them in the first place though. If humans didn’t do whatever in the first place, then those animals wouldn’t need human aid now.
I know that it’s a hot topic for people, but really, chill. Dogs, cats, etc. were also domesticated from wild animals under, what one can only assume, was a process much like the foxes’ domestication. The original point of the Russian experiment was as described and produced unexpected results. They continue to breed them as part of a genetic experiment. Quite frankly, if I were to get one (which I won’t), I would much rather support the scientific experiment than the breeders that do it in the US for profit. And, yes, I would highly encourage people to consider adopting a dog or a cat (or a parakeet or a rat or an iguana, etc.) from a shelter. But I’m not going to condemn someone for making a different choice, especially if they go into it responsibly (getting the animal neutered, checking into regulations, having realistic expectations, providing special needs, etc.)

That being said, the ones adopted from the Russian experiment are not “saved” from becoming fur coats. The tame foxes’ fur is unsuitable for peltiers (as indicated in various videos and articles). Whatever their fate, it isn’t a fur coat. It is possible that they are euthanized after any particular experiment is completed. But, from the looks of those videos, they are well socialized, so they do not appear to suffer cruelly at the hands of the experimenters. It also appears that there are not a lot of them at any given time, so there are not hundreds upon hundreds of them being bred.

[Hannah]

Edit – not going to get into this.

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[Elizabeth]

From my research they are very hard to import. I can’t seem to find any reliable source. I don’t speak Russian so I am finding adopting one almost impossible.

Some are still sold to fur farms. It talks about that in the National Geographic article. The lead scientist says she has a hard time picking which foxes should be put to death so she gets someone else to do it for her. I am sure the ones whose coats are not suited for fur industry are euthanized. It is sad.

This is Russia after all and I am not sure PETA does well in Russia.

As for my mom’s choice in this, I don’t think it is right to judge her. She has 1 rescue guinea pig, 2 rescue dogs, 4 rescue horses and 1 rescue cat. She donated her time to helping hurt wildlife. My mom is the most caring person I know. She donates to the Wild Horse Fund, Tiger Haven, and the Elephant Preserve. She donated to our local Zoo so the Red Pandas could have a better place to live. So she wants a domesticated fox. She has the means to do it. Who has the right to judge that.
Sorry i had to get that off my chest.

[Tina]

Proper breeders do not contribute to over population, one of my criteria before I would consider someone a reputable breeder is if they rescue as well. Any breeder who is even somewhat respectable takes back ANY dog they bred at any age, my Male Shibas breeder went through hell and back when she found out one of her shelties was in an SPCA several hours from her and 10 years old, she got him, and kept him until he passed, but true reputable breeders also rescue as well. I have done the rescue thing, both our cats, and both my current dogs, and i am happy with that decision, will I do it again, perhaps, but after spending $6000 on surgeries for Gage I will think twice. I would rather spend the $2000 for a well bred Mastiff from health tested lines.

[siberakh1]

Griffinlover, if you mom is informed about foxes (which it appears she is from having worked in wildlife rehab), and she is able to import one and carry out a dream of hers, then best of luck to her. 🙂 I’m a fan of wolves myself, though I would want to have a pack that was wild in my vicinity, as their wildness is a trait that just is a part of them for me and I wouldn’t want that to not be there, otherwise I’d try for a hybrid, but it’s not the same, so I’m content with my dogs and to admire from a distance. While the idea of a pet fox would be awesome, I know it wouldn’t fit with my life right now, not to mention, I don’t think I could import one into NY. I remember this from years ago and had wondered what happened regarding this. I don’t know anyone fluent in Russian (Czech would be the closest), but there are translation services that can assist. If you can’t find one, try contacting a university with a Russian department. They might be able to help point you in the right direction.

I think the issue is more with irresponsible owners, owners that don’t spay/neuter AND don’t plan carefully for litters by such actions as letting their unaltered pets roam freely, and disreputable breeders. We have 2 dogs – both American Cocker Spaniels. One is from a great breeder (Soot – he’s my mom’s baby) and the other one we adopted from word of mouth (aptly already named, Lucky). I wouldn’t trade either of them for the world and I’ve met some cockers with some pretty nasty temperaments. We had one before, Muffin (because of his coat color, I didn’t name him!) and he was mental and an inbred runt, but my parents didn’t realize it was a puppy mill type place and he would have gone to a pet shop way too young, so we took him anyways and nursed him up to good health. Yes, that place no longer exists, the owner passed on, and I was just little when we got him, but he lived a good life, just wasn’t very social to outsiders and would run into walls when balls bounced off of it and he couldn’t have toys because he was obsessively possessive.). We also had a rescued Sheltie (Casey) for the last couple of years of his life (friend couldn’t keep him). While in the future, I will definitely look into a rescue or rescue breed specific organization, if the companion that calls to me is from a breeder, I have no problem going to a breeder, particularly if the breed of dog or cat is lower in number in the states. Also, not everyone can deal with a rescue. Some rescues have issues and not everyone is ready or can deal with that (Casey had some major abuse issues from his early life before my friend had him, so he took a lot of work). Reputable breeders do guarantee their animals and will take them back if there is an issue, or if the family can’t keep their companion for some reason. You can often meet the parents/siblings and have an idea what you are getting. A shelter can’t give that, nor can a shelter always guarantee the temperament of an animal (though they do try their best). Not all breeders are bad and without some, there are a good number of dog breeds (like the Irish Wolfhound, Otterhound, or numerous other species – http://albc-usa.org/ ) that would have been lost due to wars, upheavals, lack of the work, or just dominance of one particular variety (ie. Holstein cows). While I’ve met many animals I thought were cute or would love to rescue, not all of them would been a good fit for my household/family/personality. It really does come down to responsible, informed ownership and the companion that calls to a human, since they are coming into your family, just in the form of fur, fins, scales, or feathers.

I digress… getting back to the original topic. Griffinlover, let us know what your mom finds out about importing one. Definitely post pics if you mom is able to. I’d love to see! 🙂

[Jennifer]

siberakh1 wrote:

It really does come down to responsible, informed ownership and the companion that calls to a human, since they are coming into your family, just in the form of fur, fins, scales, or feathers.

This is absolutely right, and quoted for emphasis. Most of the time it comes down to education, which when someone takes the time to come to others to learn more, they are making the right choice– they are learning before getting a pet (or deciding not to) which is admirable. Personally, I far prefer this over someone that impulse purchases, or someone that has been boxed around the ears to the point where they are afraid to turn to others for advice…

Having worked with thousands and thousands of people over the years in regards to animal care, I have found the following mantra will have people far more eager to listen, learn and often willing to make a difference in the quality of life for their animal:

Don’t berate – educate.

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