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Alaskan Huskies are bred for one reason and one reason alone to work, they are not considered a breed even by those who breed them, they are breeding for working ability alone nothing else. I have no problems with breeding such because they are bred for function, unhealthy dogs do not function well, thus are culled.
Most breeds of dogs suffer from the same afflictions, they also affect most mutts, adding new breeds into an established population does nothing but change the look of the offspring. Not all breeds started out as mutts, and (that I can think of) started out as a cross of 2 breeds. I have no problem with people wanting to create a new breed, if they actually set out to do that, most do not. They keep cross breeding to purebreds to get puppies to sell, few test the adults, and fewer still started out with well bred dogs to begin with, most started with puppymill dogs, as most were started in puppymills. The people creating the Alaskan Klee Kia and have gotten a good start, also the Carlin Pinscher as well.
To answer your question as to why blue eyes are allowed in Sibs but not mals, Sibs carry the gene to produce blue eyes mals do not, a blue eyed mal would either be albino or a cross.
A responsible breeder is not making money off of their dogs either, by the time you show, trial, health test, and only breed for yourself you spen wayyyy more than you will ever make. You can make more off a stud, but you still have to get him into the #1 of your breed or better yet #1 dog for the year before people clamber for his sperm, and that costs 10’s of thousands, so still not a large amount of money made. In the end when I look for a responsible breeder I look for someone who breeds for the love of the breed no other reason.
FYI-a well bred show dog from most of the top breeders in North America cost less than most of the mutt breeders, who isin it for the money?
I used blue eyes just as an example. There are a million others. Long coats are a “fault” in GSD’s for ex, but not Chihuahuas. Narrow chests are frowned on in some breeds but desired in others. Big ears ok in some breeds, but “faults” in other. Same for curled vs. strait tails. And what about breeds where white markings are ok, vs breeds where it is “bad”? The majority of any breed’s standard is based on what people think looks good, not what works best, or even what is healthiest for the dog! The English bulldog is a prime example.
Quote:Most breeds of dogs suffer from the same afflictions, they also affect most mutts
Confining a dog to a small genetic pool doesn’t help those health problems though.
Quote:FYI-a well bred show dog from most of the top breeders in North America cost less than most of the mutt breeders, who isin it for the money?
I am not saying that some, or even most mixed breed breeders aren’t in it for the money, but I don’t see how anyone can say that they ALL are.
It’s because most mixed breeders jump to which ever dog is the fad! Direct quote: “The hot designer dog of the decade” No breed should be bred because of a fad. They are cute, and they are supposed to be healthier than pugs. But, how long to you think that’ll last? They are studding puggles! In this case they are no longer cross breeds. Who knows what health problems will come of this.
Alaskan Klee Kai were developed carefully. I remember you couldn’t get a dog without neutering. That enabled the breeder to control the breed. Anyways always research any breeder before you shell out large bucks to get a dog.
Long coated shepherds tended to get dirtier in the field while herding, Chihuahuas can kill rats no matter what coat type they had, most hunting dogs have floppy ears to keep debris out of the ear canal. Tails have many different functions, in most terriers it is a handle to pull them out of a hole you dont want them in, hence why they are thick and straight. Most breeds a straight tail can almost only come from cross breeding, or injuries. As for colors, white dogs are not used for herding, it is hard to see them amongst the sheep, NSDT are red to attract ducks attention, white Shibas are not allowed due to superstitions. On solid color breeds such as labs it was considered a sign of cross breeding for there to be white markings.
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Confining a dog to a small genetic pool doesn’t help those health problems though.
No that is where health testing comes in, which very very very few mutt breeders do, the top “australian Labradoodle(puke)” breeder (term used very loosely) pumps out over 500 a year, not one dog is tested for anything, and this is where many of the breeders in the US got their stock, that just screams responsibe to me, doesnt it too you?
There are reasons behind every breed standard. The breed standard is the example of the perfect dog in that breed. A good breeder is going to try to get puppys as close to the breed standard as posible.
It’s breeders that don’t that cause problems. If you take a dog with recessive qualities and breed that dog then the gene for that quality will be passed on. If you take two with the same recessive gene suddenly the recessive gene is more prevelant more puppies will have this recessive gene.
For example a curly tailed shih tzu, shih tzu’s even though the tail curls up over the back isn’t curly it’s straight. I’ve seen many baddly bred shih tzus here that have cork screwed tails. Unfortunatly that’s not all. These baddly bred dogs also carry other problems through bad breeding. (Breathing problems, eyes that pop out of the socket, etc.)
ruffian wrote:Long coated shepherds tended to get dirtier in the field while herding, Chihuahuas can kill rats no matter what coat type they had, most hunting dogs have floppy ears to keep debris out of the ear canal. Tails have many different functions, in most terriers it is a handle to pull them out of a hole you dont want them in, hence why they are thick and straight. Most breeds a straight tail can almost only come from cross breeding, or injuries. As for colors, white dogs are not used for herding, it is hard to see them amongst the sheep, NSDT are red to attract ducks attention, white Shibas are not allowed due to superstitions. On solid color breeds such as labs it was considered a sign of cross breeding for there to be white markings.
If long-coated sheps get dirty on the field, so can long-coated chihuahuas. I will agree that some standards do (or did) have a purpose, but most IMO don’t. I still don’t see why half the marking are decided ok for some but not for others (many times, marking that are not allowed in a breed DO actually occur in that breed), and why it matters if ears are placed a degree higher than “they should”, and watching judges pass up a dog just because the tail does not lay across the back “perfectly”, or the eyes are a hair closer together than what is “desired”. I’ve watched AKC dog shows, and I challenge anyone to try saying that what happens in there isn’t just a beauty contest.. (This is ESPECIALLY true of cats–I have NEVER even heard of a breeder of “working cats”! To be considered a responsible cat breeder, you have to show your cats, and cat show ARE 100% beauty pagents, no doubt about it. IMO, if you are going to be against breeders of “non-working” dogs, then you should also be against breeders of “non-working” cats 😉 )
And even for dogs with working titles, how many actually need to work? I stand by my opinion that few people actually NEED a working dog in this country. Some people need their sled dogs, a few their seeing-eye or therepy dogs, and then there are the police dogs, bomb-sniffing dogs, guard dogs, and tracking bloodhounds. But that’s about it in the USA. Hunting is just a sport here. No one needs to hunt to survive. Dogs used in hunting just help us out in our various hunting sports. Same for “working mals”. Most just pull loads for weight pull competitions, no one actually needs them though, not unless you are living up in the middle of nowhere where dogs are the only practical means available to haul loads–and I have yet to see a working mal breeder in the USA who sends their dogs up to remote eskimo villages to be used where people actually do need to use them. And terriers. Some people do use them still to rid the farm or pests, but “official” working title terriers just chase rats around in tubes for competition, for sport. My point is, even the dogs with working titles, rarely do any work that is not sport-related. In the USA, 99% of dogs exist for human novelty, not for needed work. By needed work, I mean the dog is doing something that is somehow saving human lives or intended to save human lives. 99% of the dogs in the country exist as pets and for novelty sport/competition. Being our pets and companions has essentially become the single greatest “job” that dogs perform in the USA. I actually have more respect on many occasions for a responsible pet dog breeder than for a breeder of show or “working” dogs. What the world doesn’t have enough of IMO are responsible breeders who breed solely to produce the best pet quality dogs possible. And to be a PET, a dog doesn’t have to be “pure”. It just have to have good health, and good temperament. Too much attention is paid to ribbons and trophy’s. If your kennel doesn’t have a million titles, you are frowned uppon. What ever happened to breeding dogs for the simple purpose of being a good pet? Again, only a minute % of the dog world in the USA performs a jobs that are needed for human survival. All those pet dogs, show dogs, competition dogs, and half the working title dogs, exist for the one reason and one reason only: novelty (human pleasure).
Quote:No that is where health testing comes in, which very very very few mutt breeders do, the top “australian Labradoodle(puke)” breeder (term used very loosely) pumps out over 500 a year, not one dog is tested for anything, and this is where many of the breeders in the US got their stock, that just screams responsibe to me, doesnt it too you?
If you traced back dogs far enough from ANY breeder, you are going to find that some came from places we would consider “irresponsible.” Again, I’m just saying that it would be impossible to call every single mixed breed breeder irresponsible SOLELY on the basis of knowing they bred mixed breeds! The term “responsible” is based on how you produce and sell dogs.
Looks over pages, just how did this get from dye to breeding? And a heated debate about breeds? Sigh, I give up. 😡
Because, someone made a comment about designer dogs, and I just couldn’t keep my big mouth shut. 😀 Trust me, it annoys me too to see how much people will pay for a puggle or yorkiepoo or schnoodle, and to see them being mass-produced just because they are popular, but I try to remember that there are good and bad breeders in every corner, regardless of whether or not rhe dogs being produced are mixed or “pure”. I like to take things on an individual basis, I hate making blanket statements.
I will agree that there are bad breeders everywhere, and the mark of a good breeder, to me, is one that evolves with thew times 20 years ago people didnt health test, now good breeders do. Chihuahuas wernt really taken out in the field to kill rats it was at home. While show judgeing is done on what appears to be beauty it goes deeper than that, the judge is not compairing each dog to the other they are compairing the group to the standard, as they interpete it. The standards are based on what worked in the field. The same goes from group and BIS they do not compair the dogs to one another, they compair it to the standard and who most cloesly matches it. I do not agree with all the breeding that takes place, I truly do not think that Bulldogs and Pugs should be bred to the extreems that they are bred now, that is why I dont deal with those breeds. I dont think that crossing them with beagles is the answer though. I am not against breeders of non-working dogs, talk about making blanket statements, I do think that it is better for dogs to show that they are more than looks. Breeding for only show is what caused the seperation in labs, goldens and spainels, people breeding for only show. There are reasons I want a pup from working and conformation dogs, because I believe in brains over beauty, but I also what to know what it is going to look like as an adult. If the people produing “designer dogs” had set out to produce an actual breed I would have no issues with it, but they are just breeding 2 dogs together to make puppies to sell, even if they are doing health tests is wrong IMO. This is why I ppointed out 2 what may be up and comming breeds, there are a couple others, but most of them are crosses of different mastiffs and have, by most reports, very unstable temperments or very very, 5 year, short life spans, and I jsut dont understand creating a breed with such problems right from the onset.
ruffian wrote:I will agree that there are bad breeders everywhere, and the mark of a good breeder, to me, is one that evolves with thew times 20 years ago people didnt health test, now good breeders do. Chihuahuas wernt really taken out in the field to kill rats it was at home. While show judgeing is done on what appears to be beauty it goes deeper than that, the judge is not compairing each dog to the other they are compairing the group to the standard, as they interpete it. The standards are based on what worked in the field. The same goes from group and BIS they do not compair the dogs to one another, they compair it to the standard and who most cloesly matches it. I do not agree with all the breeding that takes place, I truly do not think that Bulldogs and Pugs should be bred to the extreems that they are bred now, that is why I dont deal with those breeds. I dont think that crossing them with beagles is the answer though. I am not against breeders of non-working dogs, talk about making blanket statements, I do think that it is better for dogs to show that they are more than looks. Breeding for only show is what caused the seperation in labs, goldens and spainels, people breeding for only show. There are reasons I want a pup from working and conformation dogs, because I believe in brains over beauty, but I also what to know what it is going to look like as an adult. If the people produing “designer dogs” had set out to produce an actual breed I would have no issues with it, but they are just breeding 2 dogs together to make puppies to sell, even if they are doing health tests is wrong IMO. This is why I ppointed out 2 what may be up and comming breeds, there are a couple others, but most of them are crosses of different mastiffs and have, by most reports, very unstable temperments or very very, % year, short life spans, and I jsut dont understand creating a breed with such problems right from the onset.
This is exactly how I feel.
Quote:If the people produing “designer dogs” had set out to produce an actual breed I would have no issues with it, but they are just breeding 2 dogs together to make puppies to sell, even if they are doing health tests is wrong IMO.
What makes the “purebred” better than the mixed breed though? Just the fact that the purebreds all act and look alike?
Purebreds do not all act alike, they do have traits that are similar within the breed, Sibs like to run, shelies like to herd etc. I do not have a porblem with mutts, I have a problem with irresponsible breeders, and what makes people a responsible breeder IMO just cant be done by mutt breeders. Far too many people breed with the “they are just pets not show dogs” attitude and for the most part they do not care one lick for the health or well being of the pups they produce, and that goes for mutt and purebred breeders alike. The propaganda that many mutt breeders spout is pure BS, and people buy into it thinking they are getting the best of both breeds and it just doesnt happen, the predictablity of well bred purebreds is what makes them stand out to me. When I pick up my pup I know that it will look and act like a ___________ not a little of this and a little of that. On the pet forums I hear my terripoo is digging why? My sheltipoo is nipping my heals wahh. I mean there is alot of my rottie is chaseing the cattle, and my lab wont stay out of the water, but for the most part it is why is my mix breed not acting like the “breeder” said she would.
Quote:I have a problem with irresponsible breeders, and what makes people a responsible breeder IMO just cant be done by mutt breeders.
*agrees to dissagree*
Quote:The propaganda that many mutt breeders spout is pure BS, and people buy into it thinking they are getting the best of both breeds and it just doesnt happen, the predictablity of well bred purebreds is what makes them stand out to me. When I pick up my pup I know that it will look and act like a ___________ not a little of this and a little of that.
I think that could be solved simply by educating buyers about the breeds that are in the dogs’ mixes. Puggles for example. Educate buyers about pugs AND beagles, and be clear to buyers that the pups could have any combo of good and bad traits from either breed.
And it is possible to have predictability with mixed breeds, but it takes dedication. Selective breeding and careful selection of dogs to be used as breeders. Through trial and error, breeders can figure out which studs do best with which females, and what sort of pups are typically produced between them, even when both are of completely different breeds. The same is done with purebreds, to compensate for the slight differences that can exist within the same breed. (earlier when I mentioned purebreds all looking and acting alike, I meant that all the dogs of one breed will look and act relatively similar–similar enough to distinguish them as a “breed”)The problem is it should be up to the breeder to educate, hell with the news jumping on the band wagon you almost have no hope. People dont listen they see something and want it, they rarely do research, if they did would every one have flocked to get a Collie so “Lassie” because it will save little Johnnie? Or Dalmatians cause Pongo and Perdie were so smart? Or PRT because Eddie and Wishbone did so many tricks? According to the mass public Rottweilers and Chow Chows should never be in the same house as children, and Pitbulls, should not be around anyone they should all be dead. Like they said in MIB “A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals.”
The problem with crossing some of these breeds is the combinations, Pugs are known to suffer from breathing problems, so they cross them with a breed known to run for 10+hours, that is asking for problems. Almost every pug beagle (I cant call them a puggle, a puggle is a baby monotreme) cross has a short nose, an a huge number do in fact have breathing troubles, but the “breeders” dont seem to care. Hell why would they since the first ones were bred in a puppymill.
And while we are working through trial and error what do we do with the cast offs? While other breeds were being created they were killed should we start doing that? By then crossing them back into another, well that is how you start to create a breed, and well then it isnt a mix anymore and your whole argument is gone. Few creating mixes are doing health tests, none are trying to creat a real breed. We have had a couple of breeds actually created and gained breed status so if they had wanted to they really could have, the Cesky took less than 20 years to create so why is it that they Cocker Poodle cross still has no breed stability after 30 years? Because no one is dedicated. The shear number of these “designer breeds” in shelters is staggering, and disgusting, not that there are no purebreds, I have watched my own breed go from maybe 10 to 300 in the last 10 years, but that is also from irresponsible breeding.
Quote:People dont listen they see something and want it, they rarely do research, if they did would every one have flocked to get a Collie so “Lassie” because it will save little Johnnie? Or Dalmatians cause Pongo and Perdie were so smart? Or PRT because Eddie and Wishbone did so many tricks? According to the mass public Rottweilers and Chow Chows should never be in the same house as children, and Pitbulls, should not be around anyone they should all be dead. Like they said in MIB “A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky animals.”
Like I said, any dog is capable of becoming a fad. Huskies were real big after the movie “Snow Dogs”
Quote:The problem with crossing some of these breeds is the combinations, Pugs are known to suffer from breathing problems, so they cross them with a breed known to run for 10+hours, that is asking for problems. Almost every pug beagle (I cant call them a puggle, a puggle is a baby monotreme) cross has a short nose, an a huge number do in fact have breathing troubles, but the “breeders” dont seem to care. Hell why would they since the first ones were bred in a puppymill.
Maybe pug breeders should take a hint, and atart breeding healthier dogs. Same with SharPeis and English Bulldogs. As I said, today, more concern seems to be paid to looks than function, when it come to dogs.
The foundation stock for a mixed breed breeder does not necasarily have to come from a puppymill.Quote:And while we are working through trial and error what do we do with the cast offs? While other breeds were being created they were killed should we start doing that? By then crossing them back into another, well that is how you start to create a breed, and well then it isnt a mix anymore and your whole argument is gone. Few creating mixes are doing health tests, none are trying to creat a real breed.
“Cast-offs” go to pet homes as well, same with purebred dog breeders. What do you think THEY do with all the dogs they produce that are not good enough for the shows and working trials? A cast-off, in most cases, is not a bad dog.
Refining does not have to lead to a new breed. Like I said, through trial and error, a breeder can learn which studs do best with which females. To keep the offspring at perfect 50/50 crosses, you just confine your breeding stock to purebred animals. You can still refine without breeding the mixed offspring to one another, but it does mean having to go out and look for completely fresh breeding stock when you retire your current pairs. I agree, you will not be able to refine very easily this way, since you will not be able to use any mixed-breed offspring you produce, but it is not impossible. If a pair doesn’t seem to be producing the sort of pups you desire, then you try a different pair. Trial and error is a necassary part of ANY breeding project, regardless of the breed or breeds involved.
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