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Blackdesertwind wrote:
Love your jewelry. 🙂
i am guesing some one already said something, but in case not, here is a link that has more of the discussion that may help: http://www.windstoneeditions.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10104
I just will not be posting art here any more.
This has turned into a real mess of understanding, misunderstanding, unintentionally misconstruing, etc. and I do realize it is largely my doing for not paying attention to how much of what was being offered for sale on the forum. I have to stand by the decision to remove the casts that were for sale because they were definitely a commercial venture with a commercial website and I don’t ever remember sanctioning that sort of advertising. But I do remember removing some others.
I personally think we can provide a place for everyone to show their artwork but we all need to decide how to do that and define what is not appropriate and what is. We do need your help in doing this. Input is good. So if we can turn this into a conversation without extreme reactions we will figure it out. A lot of you do sell your artwork through other venues that are not, in my mind, as commercial as a store (be it web store or street store) and so it is pretty confusing as to where to draw the line. Or we should just say “no sales” to make it fair. We are still debating this and you can certainly join in. All I ask is that you all read the posts carefully and try to stick with the words and intent of the dialog so we can stay on the same track. I will see if we can get a thread up that opens with the key ideas tomorrow. It’s getting late and we need to go home.
Ok, my turn. I’ve been reading these threads since they started and since I don’t have an artistic bone in my body, but love art, I am a true middle of the road, ride the fence person.
I understand what John’s saying. He’s not saying “Don’t show your work here, because he and everyone else really wants to see it. He’s not saying “don’t use the thread to sell some of your PERSONAL work. What he is saying, and I have to agree, Is “Don’t put a commerical work, or site here.” After all, I’m sure other businesses wouldn’t agree to it either.
Some things like the snakes are very nice, I loved them, but it’s in the same category as a business, (and Keeperoftheflocks not trying to hurt feelings or tic ANYONE off) a serious business. You do afterall have your own website. John doesn’t mind you saying “look what I have”, just not “sell them on here” He wouldn’t post his sales stuff on your website in a forum. ( everyone really needs to start thinking the links thing better).
Kioshi, you of all people know I love your things. 😉 John’s not going to get you for your art or the few things you sell unless it was blatantly plagarised and yours isn’t. He’s really a nice guy, But he does have to protect his and the family’s interests.
I know for a fact I would seriously be disappointed not to be able to look on the art thread and see everyone’s work. I myself have put up threads showing people’s work that I thought complemented Windstone’s work. (See fairys, pixies and ghouls, oh my)
I do think we need to have a set of rules to go by. Windstones that’s your job. 😉ok, I’m dun, you should have told me to shut up about 20 minutes ago. Took me a long time to write this. :hi:
:spank:Although I don’t buy much, I think it would be a shame to ban all sales except for Windstones. Like you said, John, some artists here don’t have a website and just sell their art here once in a while.
A basic rule could be: Here, guys, see what I did! If you’re interested, PM or email me. If the artist has a website, then: Here, guys, see what I did! If you’re interested, see my website at http://www.myawesomestuff.com. 2huberts is right, we should use links as much as possible for stuff like that.
And another thing that got me thinking while reading the other posts… it almost seems like we go looking for similarities with Windstones, even when there are none. I know Melody had shown a picture of PC’s sea serpent and people thought it was Melody’s work. Well, of course they would, since she’s the one showing the pic! As soon as she shows something, I’m sure people think it’s her work. Only collectors like us would know at first sight whether it is or isn’t. Yet to me, that particular sculpt didn’t scream Windstone at all. If we look close enough, everything can look partly like a Windstone. I don’t have any constructive comments on this, it’s just my personal observation, which echoes some of the other posts.
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http://www.sarahjestin.com/feedbacklists.htmdragonmedley wrote:I know Melody had shown a picture of PC’s sea serpent and people thought it was Melody’s work. Well, of course they would, since she’s the one showing the pic! As soon as she shows something, I’m sure people think it’s her work. Only collectors like us would know at first sight whether it is or isn’t. Yet to me, that particular sculpt didn’t scream Windstone at all.
THANK YOU! That’s EXACTLY what I thought!
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Dreamscape, Orion, Poison Dart, Fireberry, Spangler + Tigerberry DragonsI probably shouldn’t say this, but I wanted to be clear about it– the piece in question you are talking about– in its first inception– was looked at by a group of people unfamiliar with Melody’s work and Windstones in general, and most of them agreed they’d mistake it for a Windstone if they saw it in a store. It was not Melody that presented it.. she stayed completely out of the equation.
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My art: featherdust.comOk, work is quiet for a moment and I’ve had time to gather my thoughts to something coherent, so here goes.
I feel it was poor planning/monitoring on the part of Windstone to not have decided that artists can’t sell their wares on their site. Perhaps this is my being in the tech field and having worked on and examined websites, so maybe it’s second hat to me, but it’s something that I’m surprised was overlooked. While yes, it does make a lot of sense and I was surprised that nothing was said when people started selling items, it has gone on unchecked for so long that to suddenly have a thread or two entirely disappear and say, we aren’t allowing this anymore has the tact of throwing a brick at someone. While I know that wasn’t the intention, it hurts and is very blunt versus having given a warning to the effect of, ‘due to the recent increase in members advertising their products/artwork for sale on the forum, it has been decided that members please refrain from doing so going forward. We apologize for not being clear about these or monitoring this sooner.’ Not as blunt, just as effective, and doesn’t hurt or alienate anywhere near as much.
I do agree with the point made by Dragonmedley and Drag0nfeathers. If a known artist shows someone a piece of artwork, instinctively a person is going to ask “Did you do that?” or just assume, especially if it is something similar in nature (a dragon if you sculpt dragons) or if the artist plays and is successful in a variety of mediums. I got this all through school and growing up. I still get this now. While I don’t make a living off of my art, I have won awards/money for it and if I show someone something, people ask if I made it. I’ve had people ask if I made Windstone pyo before. People think all the pyos I own are painted by me, until I tell them otherwise (which I do when someone stops by the house, spots the display cabinet and starts to oogle). Having an artist show someone a piece of art is not exactly a 100% accurate way to gauge a reaction for that reason. There is a bias based on assumption involved. (NOTE: I tried to add this note last night, but apparently the forum ate it. I realize that Nambroth posted that Melody wasn’t the one showing the picture of the sea serpeant, but I will still leave this, as it does make a good point and something for all artists to consider and keep in mine. Further, how a person is asked to compare a piece of art matters as well, as speech can carry an implied bias if a person isn’t careful about how they ask or say something, even when there was no intention to do so.)
I know I’ve done work that turned out similar to something else, or I’ve seen others do work that turned out similar to mine. Did we collaborate or even know the other work existed? Nope. It will happen from time to time. Lately, it has come across, I’m sure not intentionally, as somewhat of a witch hunt (a stronger term than I want to use, but for lack of a better substitute) for ‘trade dress’ very recently, where what falls into that hazy gray area appears to be broadening lately. While many items that have appeared on ebay, online, or at a flea market have been clear copyright infringements or strikingly similar, a few haven’t, like the last incarnation of Purplecat’s sea serpeant (if my brother can tell the difference – he’s not very familiar with Windstone, but he sees all the pieces I have at the house or oogle at online and can pick out the differences, as can the rest of my family who are a little more initiated in my collection, I’d have to beg to differ. He’ll say they are similar, but he can tell you that they aren’t by the same artist, that they are two different dragons.) While I can see with the first incarnation that there was an issue, I don’t see the issue on the latest incarnation (if there still is/was one). Pardon the sea serpeant example, but it’s the only one I can really come up with to make my point. *note: Nam posted just as I was posting regarding this, that Melody wasn’t the one who showed others the work… but I will keep this part, as it is still something to think about regardless in the future, for any artist really*
I know I’ve come up with some ideas on pyos or started painting them, only to find that someone has done one similar. Do I finish them or not? I painted a pyo dragon (Autumn Fern) that ended up similar to one that Nambroth painted (her Flame-crested forest male dragon), but I had started and completed it in December 2007 (dated 2007 on the bottom felt), while Nambroth’s is dated 4/2/2008 on the bottom felt. Hers came out later, but someone saw mine in a picture from its present owner’s collection after Nambroth posted hers and asked if I had copied Nambroth. While not exact, they are extremely similar (I based mine on the late summer ferns that were changing color in the fall I saw while on vacation in New Brunswick in 2007 – Pegasi1978 owns my little dragon, though I plan on doing another one like him for myself). I’ve had several ideas where I may have painted it and not posted it before someone with the same idea came up with one similar to mine. Does that mean I can’t post or sell it, even if I painted mine first, but just didn’t get around to posting it? This starts to get into a gray area, and that is with just pyo paint jobs, and not with individual artwork.
Going forward, some of the questions that need more defined answers are:
Concerning artwork – when does selling an occassional piece (ie. look what I did, it’s for sale) become a legit seller? Does having a website constitute a seller, or is there a distinction between a hobby site or a small business site? When does similar art come under trade-dress (an answer of ‘we’ll know it when we see it’ is about as vague as the US court rulings surrounding what defines pornography… it’s subjective and differs depending on who you are speaking too), especially when things are starting to come up when many members wouldn’t consider something a violation of trade dress, but then are told that it is. I can see where the first sea serpeant incarnation would violate trade dress. I don’t see where the last one does (if it does) – saying it does seems a bit of a stretch to me.
If I can think of other gray areas that need to be defined more clearly or suggestions on how to have things move forward positively, I will post or PM them to where they need to be directed. 8)
*goes to get broom to help start clearing feathers, dust, and fur from the fray*
lotsa good pointing outs in there.
While I would like to keep in mind.
I have had that happen too! I have had people who are kind familier with my art….but see me looking at some other art(that looks WAY different from my personal style, Like Nambroth, Shinerie, Hibbary) ask me that very question JUST because they know I do art especialy dragon art and I am looking at some art(usualy dragons)! ” WOW! that is really good! Did you do that?” and of course I have to say,”well, no….actualy how I draw is….very different.” I mean…..really, so then where is that line?
“well if the viewer can recognize it is windstone..” but then…how manny viewers and how wide a pannel? because isn’t thiere always going to be some that say,”HAY! yeah, that looks like Windstone!” For instance, I saw a franklin mint that really STRUCK me hard as being Windstone-ish….but not to clammer over and over about it, and certianly not to beat the dead horse. I am not trying to say,”Hay, I think you guys have this set up against us.” But I am trying to point out some feelings and thouhts that I think have been brewing for a while.
If you look at it this way, not manny of us know the technicalities of this “trade dress” and every time we think we are understanding it…something new seems to come up about “trade dress” that too some of us(?) seems to get grayer and grayer…and the only explanation that can be given is,” well, it is the look and feel. If some one can look and think it “could” be windstone, then it is a trade dress infringement.” and that can cover almost anything being like what was said, we can all view things relitively different…..so then…..on top of it all…the only way(at the moment that is) we are getting this explanation of this is from the very compony trying to protect it’s works. Now again, this is just to help with understanding how a lot of us may be seeing things from our point of view, I am in no way trying and i DO NOT WANT any one to take my words as meaning that Windstone is intentionaly bullying/decieving/ or any other way of misleading us. I think we can agree that there is a LOT here that we have no experience in.
But any way, being that this is the general feeling, and the general understanding is soo…..greyish, it even has me wondering if I should go and ask a lawyer,” ok, how much would this Trade Dress cover???”
(I really really hope this is helping with explaining some of our concerns and feelings on this. I do not think any of us are intending to muddy this up or upset any of the Windstone staff. Personaly, I would like to belive that the Windstone staff has and does try to treat us with the most fairness and curtisy.) (also, please ignore the spelling and possible bad grammer, I just had a massively bad day)
Jennifer wrote:I probably shouldn’t say this, but I wanted to be clear about it– the piece in question you are talking about– in its first inception– was looked at by a group of people unfamiliar with Melody’s work and Windstones in general, and most of them agreed they’d mistake it for a Windstone if they saw it in a store. It was not Melody that presented it.. she stayed completely out of the equation.
I would like to apologize if this has been a sore or maybe even painful subject to see brought up in public. Even though I did not bring it up, I know it was a sore one for a lot of people. ( I can’t help feeling bad that this seems to be getting muddy)
KoishiiKitty wrote:But any way, being that this is the general feeling, and the general understanding is soo…..greyish, it even has me wondering if I should go and ask a lawyer,” ok, how much would this Trade Dress cover???”
This is probably not the easiest concept to understand but it isn’t all that vague either. I think I have tried to explain it a few times without a lot of luck so here is a link that should have some authority and more info. than you may want to read but it looks like it is very accurate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_dress
To illustrate how this can factor into business and our concerns over losing rights to the qualities that distinguish Windstone I will relate something that happened many years ago. There was a small collectable store in Orange county that was producing and wholesaling knockoffs of our dragons that were sculpted by the guy’s wife but obviously taken from Melody’s work. We even had someone go into her studio and found her working with a Windstone dragon perched right there on her sculpting table although, even without that, because the dragons were decorated with the same patterns of paint colored dots and gold trim as ours, anyone could see the similarity and could become confused. That similarity in the paint and trim extended to one or two dragons that she had sculpted that were not copied from Melody’s. We ended up in a lawsuit and the upshot of it was that we wanted, as part of the settlement agreement, to prohibit them from using our manner of decoration on the non-Windstone related dragons in order to preserve the rights to our distinctive Trade Dress which has always signified Windstone dragons. The guy was a tough old fellow from Eastern Europe and he just wouldn’t give up until we made some kind of concession in the settlement. So, in the end, he agreed to pay us a fair amount of money, stop making the knockoffs, stop painting the remaining dragons with airbrushed stripes like our dragons were painted at the time and stop putting colored dots on the scales. He just refused to quit the gold trim without us both spending a lot more in legal fees, so we gave him his concession and gave him a license, for a dollar, to use the gold trim. We didn’t give up our distinctive Trade Dress and we all moved on.
These are the types of situations that you just have to deal with when you have a commercial line of artwork. It always feels like a total waste of time and energy and we hate it, but, as we keep trying to hammer home to emerging artists or designers, the strongest asset you can develop is your originality. And you won’t ever find yourself on solid ground if you lose it. And all the skill in the world won’t replace it.
All of the above is meant to be informative and constructive and should not be construed any other way. If you truly want to sell your art in this world, and succeed, then go for it. But learn as much as you can about where you are headed and (this is pointed at on one in particular) prepare yourself with your strengths of originality. If you are even debating about the nuances of similarity, then you are probably headed in the wrong direction. Does that make any sense? I will continue to hammer at this as long as I have anybody listening (or a captive audience).
It is too late at the moment for me to go over the Link to wikipedia, but the example you gave is an interesting one to understanding what is going on. I am sorry if it seems like you have to keep re-explaining this thing to us. I think you have a very captive audience for this.
KoishiiKitty wrote:Jennifer wrote:I probably shouldn’t say this, but I wanted to be clear about it– the piece in question you are talking about– in its first inception– was looked at by a group of people unfamiliar with Melody’s work and Windstones in general, and most of them agreed they’d mistake it for a Windstone if they saw it in a store. It was not Melody that presented it.. she stayed completely out of the equation.
I would like to apologize if this has been a sore or maybe even painful subject to see brought up in public. Even though I did not bring it up, I know it was a sore one for a lot of people. ( I can’t help feeling bad that this seems to be getting muddy)
I don’t really know what to say to this… 😳 My example used wrong info, but in a way, my point still stands. A piece of art has been put aside because of the trade dress issue, even if now, it looks nothing like a Windstone. Yes, it’s painful to bring it up, but we need concrete examples here.
Siberakh’s example is also very good. I remember a member who had started to paint a dragon, had taken a break, then in the meantime, someone else posted a piece which reminder her of the color scheme she was working on. So she changed it completely. Yet she knew the other one hadn’t copied on her and vice versa. We’re so afraid of people even thinking we copied someone else, we don’t go through with our ideas, and that’s with PYOs only…
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http://www.sarahjestin.com/feedbacklists.htmdragonmedley wrote:KoishiiKitty wrote:Jennifer wrote:I probably shouldn’t say this, but I wanted to be clear about it– the piece in question you are talking about– in its first inception– was looked at by a group of people unfamiliar with Melody’s work and Windstones in general, and most of them agreed they’d mistake it for a Windstone if they saw it in a store. It was not Melody that presented it.. she stayed completely out of the equation.
I would like to apologize if this has been a sore or maybe even painful subject to see brought up in public. Even though I did not bring it up, I know it was a sore one for a lot of people. ( I can’t help feeling bad that this seems to be getting muddy)
I don’t really know what to say to this… 😳 My example used wrong info, but in a way, my point still stands. A piece of art has been put aside because of the trade dress issue, even if now, it looks nothing like a Windstone. Yes, it’s painful to bring it up, but we need concrete examples here.
Siberakh’s example is also very good. I remember a member who had started to paint a dragon, had taken a break, then in the meantime, someone else posted a piece which reminder her of the color scheme she was working on. So she changed it completely. Yet she knew the other one hadn’t copied on her and vice versa. We’re so afraid of people even thinking we copied someone else, we don’t go through with our ideas, and that’s with PYOs only…
I agree with that, it is something that has left a lot of people confused and unsettled and is good for discussion.
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