I'm going to be sick! Please sign this petition BAN FUR!

[Arlla]

SPark wrote:

If you’re going to not wear fur, then you shouldn’t wear leather or eat meat either.

Then I will have huge respect for you, even if I don’t agree that one shouldn’t kill animals for human benefit myself.

That’s my take on it. What they do to your leather cow is just as bad as what they do to your fur mink, and what they do to your meat pig may well be even worse.

If you’re against fur just because it’s the cute cuddly animals dying horribly, and you don’t care if it’s a big dumb cow or a fat ugly pig dying like that, well… maybe you should reconsider why you’re against fur?

(I’m probably going to get lynched for this… please know that I do not mean it personally. But being around the furry community, I get this sort of petition going past a lot, and every time it seems to be with the “don’t kill the cute animals” spin on it. )

um…I’m wondering if you actually read Drag0n’s original post….?
Neither she nor I nor most of the people who have spoken up on this in favor of banning fur object to the killing to cute fuzzy animals.
What we object to is the process of skinning an animal alive because the cost of killing it first cuts too much into the profits and then letting it die slowly and in great pain. It’s much more about the cruelty than the killing…at least for me. And what sort of animal it is has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with it.

It’s easy to say “well your a hypocrit if you want to ban fur but still eat meat.” I disagree with this. For one thing, we need to eat, and we are biologically omnivores. Protien is essential for us and meat is a tastey and natural way to get it. It is very very easy to eat meat that has been free ranged and killed humanely – it’s pretty easy to find in most grocery stores.
Clothing ourselves is also essential, but as there are about a kazillion ways to do it (and just as warmly) without fur, fur becomes an unnecessary luxury. That’s a whole lot of other creatures suffering for the sake of someone’s comfort or fasion sense.
And leather is generally a by product of meat animals. I for one don’t have any problems with byproducts of meat animals – it’s a whole lot better than wasting it. It’s much better if everything is used.
Which is also why no one should throw away an inherited coat just because it’s made of fur – if it’s already there, why waste it?

(Lots of people don’t know that dogs and cats are a big part of the fur industry. China uses cat and dog fur on many things, including toys. I’m not sure why the use of cats and dogs in particular makes it worse though…)

Many people just don’t know what is involved in making that fur coat. That’s why I’m glad topics like this come up.

Drag0n – I know about veal, but what do they do to make Kosher meat???
Also, do you have any other good petitions?? I’m not sure the original one you put forward will go anywhere…It doesn’t even require full names or addresses…I’m not sure anyone in a position of power would take it seriously.

You know, I really HATE animal rights groups. They’ve completely ruined it for all the rest of us interested in animal rights. They’re not good at anything except pissing people off. I despise PETA especially….

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[Skigod377]

So, what is the petition for? Banning fur altogether, or banning inhumane practices? I agree, that uneccessary tourture is crap and I am against it and would never do it, but I dont believe that all meat/fur producers do that. If the vid shows cats in cages, is it even from America? Do we have places that kill cats? If so, I had no idea 🙁 Im curious as to how Kosher meat gets produced. I do know about veal.

[drag0nfeathers]

Kosher meat is basically having “clean” meat. Meat with no blood in it. They hang the animal by it’s hind legs and puncture the jugular usually. The animal has to stay alive and bleed to death slowly. The heart needs to pump out as much blood as possible.

The petition says inhumane and cruel acts to obtain fur, so I’m assuming that’s what is meant by it.

Thanks Arlla too for the comments. That’s pretty much exactly the point I was trying to make, though you explained much better then me, LOL! Though I respect everyone elses opinions about the subject, that’s pretty much the same way I feel about it.

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[Maria]

The first line of the petition says this:

Quote:

I, and all who have signed this petition, agree that killing animals for fur is cruel and unnecessary

The way I read it, they want to ban all killing of animals for fur. They don’t limit it to inhumane practices. That’s why I won’t sign.

[Arlla]

skigod377 wrote:

So, what is the petition for? Banning fur altogether, or banning inhumane practices? I agree, that uneccessary tourture is crap and I am against it and would never do it, but I dont believe that all meat/fur producers do that. If the vid shows cats in cages, is it even from America? Do we have places that kill cats? If so, I had no idea 🙁 Im curious as to how Kosher meat gets produced. I do know about veal.

I’m almost positive that at least a portion of retired shelter animals are sold to purposes like these…I don’t know, is there a law mandating what animals are to be used for fur?? Because I thought cat fur was pretty popular.

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[Arlla]

drag0nfeathers wrote:

Kosher meat is basically having “clean” meat. Meat with no blood in it. They hang the animal by it’s hind legs and puncture the jugular usually. The animal has to stay alive and bleed to death slowly. The heart needs to pump out as much blood as possible.

Hmm. Well, bleeding out isn’t nearly as bad as what could be happening to them…certainly not the quickest way to go though. Thanks for letting me know – I learned something new.

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[SPark]

Arlla wrote:

um…I’m wondering if you actually read Drag0n’s original post….?

Yes.

I said what I said, and I stand by it. Honestly? It’s an animal. It’s very sad that it dies in pain. I don’t like it. But that’s as far as it goes.

The meat industry is not necessarily any more humane than the fur industry. If you can prove to me that ALL slaughterhouses EVERYWHERE use humane killing methods I MIGHT change my mind. Or that ALL fur killing EVERYWHERE is torture. But the fact is that many meat animals die horribly, and many fur animals are killed cleanly, and just because somebody found a shock video of ONE time when they weren’t, that doesn’t change my opinion one bit.

Did you know that euthanized pets get made into pet food? In the USA? You may be getting upset over cat coats when your cat is EATING CAT.

You could spend a lifetime being outraged about things that are done to animals, and accomplish nothing. Maybe it makes me callous, but I have seen so very many petitions like this, and they do nothing at all. If you want to fight animal cruelty, go adopt a shelter cat, or find some other way to actually make a difference. Signing petitions does nothing.

[Arlla]

SPark wrote:

Arlla wrote:

um…I’m wondering if you actually read Drag0n’s original post….?

Yes.

I said what I said, and I stand by it. Honestly? It’s an animal. It’s very sad that it dies in pain. I don’t like it. But that’s as far as it goes.

The meat industry is not necessarily any more humane than the fur industry. If you can prove to me that ALL slaughterhouses EVERYWHERE use humane killing methods I MIGHT change my mind. Or that ALL fur killing EVERYWHERE is torture. But the fact is that many meat animals die horribly, and many fur animals are killed cleanly, and just because somebody found a shock video of ONE time when they weren’t, that doesn’t change my opinion one bit.

As I said before, it’s VERY easy to find meat that has been raised, kept and killed humaely. I’ve been doing it for years now.

Finding fur that is the same is a whole lot harder – HALF of all the US’s fur products come from China where there are no regulations on animal cruetly. And even if fur products are made in America or Europe, the fur itself very often comes from somewhere else, and its usually China.

SPark wrote:

Did you know that euthanized pets get made into pet food? In the USA? You may be getting upset over cat coats when your cat is EATING CAT.

I personally did know this, though very many people don’t. Since I found this out, I have always done very extensive research into the ingrediants on my cats’ and dog’s food and buy only those labeled with specific meats. If it says “chicken” you know it’s chicken. If it says “meat” “meat by products” or anything generalized like that, it can literally be ANY meat – euthanized pets, retired circus animals, or road kill. Seriously.
Once again, if you’re knowledable about these things, it’s pretty easy to avoid them.

SPark wrote:

You could spend a lifetime being outraged about things that are done to animals, and accomplish nothing. Maybe it makes me callous, but I have seen so very many petitions like this, and they do nothing at all. If you want to fight animal cruelty, go adopt a shelter cat, or find some other way to actually make a difference. Signing petitions does nothing.

It’s really sad that you feel this way – this is why many things DON’T happen – because people believe that they just can’t change things or make a difference. People CAN!
I agree that almost every petition I’ve found on this subject is never going to go anywhere – most of these petitions don’t even count as petitions, just rants. I think most people don’t understand how to make a petition work. This frustrates me, and as a result I think I may write my own petition on this subject after researching how to do it right.
BUT, there is a TON that people can do that leaves petitions out of it.
If you are interested in the Chinese fur farms issue, or just the dog and cat fur issue, here are a few things that the Humane Society suggests:

http://www.hsus.org/wildlife/fur_and_trapping/betrayal_of_trust_the_global_trade_in_dog_and_cat_fur/dog_and_cat_fur_action_guide/

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[Mimi]

Arlla wrote:

As I said before, it’s VERY easy to find meat that has been raised, kept and killed humaely. I’ve been doing it for years now.

Can you let me know how you go about it?

Since drag0n started this thread, I’ve looked into this issue some more, and it seems that there are a lot of loopholes and loose definitions (i.e., chickens can be labeled as “free range” just because the shed has an opening that’s too small to allow more than a small fraction of the chickens to go outside each day, etc.).

I’d like to find out more about how I can be sure that I’m buying meat that’s been raised and killed humanely.

[Pam]

You could always switch to eating wild-killed game. Nothing’s more free-range than that 😀 Most of the red meat I consume is from deer that were hunted and killed in the wild. And I KNOW that’s where they came from because it was my dad who hunted them.

On another note, it’s nearly impossible to live without being a part of inhumane/unfair treatment to living organisms. The house you lived in likely displaced something… The veggies and fruits you eat are from fields that are likely a source of harmful pesticides and herbicides that contribute to the slow deaths of many innocent creatures, and the feild they were grown in probably displaced millions of living organisms. The wood your furniture came from was probably from a tree on the other side of the world, the product of millions of acres of deforestation…

[SPark]

http://www.savebabe.com/facts_fallacies.php
http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/horse/ALL///
http://www.uncaged.co.uk/vivisect.htm
http://www.veggies.org.uk/arc.php
http://www.arkonline.com/abuse.html
http://www.pisces.demon.co.uk/factshe6.html
http://www.ari-online.org/
http://peaceriverrefuge.org/How_To_Help.html
http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/animal_cruelty.php
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Cruelty_home

That’s the result of a five minute search. Do you know how many more sites like that there are? Google turned up more than two million results. And of those, which are associated with animal right militias, and PETA? Which have executives skimming donations? Which are well-meaning but waste their resources accomplishing nothing? I could devote a lifetime to trying to support animal rights and get nowhere.

That’s the problem with this for me. There is no way to tell legitimate causes from those that are not. And how does one put in the fine gradations? Farmers trying to make a living are sometimes inhumane to farm animals. Should I then put the welfare of animals above that of humans? And what about people who make a living in the fur industry then? Do embargoes against non-endangered furs actually keep animals from being killed cruely? Or do they just get sold elsewhere? If it does stop cruelty, is it at the expense of people who are just trying to make a living? Is it worth it anyhow? And is it hypocritical of people to want to stop the fur trade, but not stop eating meat? The cow is just as dead. Does it really matter if it suffered for a couple of minutes or died cleanly? When a wolf eats it, they eat them still alive a lot of the time. Is that cruelty too?

The whole thing is a huge tangle of thorns. I prefer to love and care for my rescued cats, and know that even if it’s tiny, I did something I know made a genuine positive difference to the welfare of animals.

I’m sorry if I’m coming off as harsh. The whole thing just makes me so frustrated! I’m upset at the situation, not you guys. I know people try and do the best they can, but SO MANY of these campaigns are useless, so many more put animals ahead of people, and so many on top of that have questionable ethics, and that doesn’t leave very many.

[drag0nfeathers]

Not to just jump in on that, but at one point I had 18 cats and 5 dogs which were all rescues from shelters so it’s not like I just posted this petition up and dusted my hands off as if I had done my good deed for the day and the weight was lifted. I rescue anything and everything I can and find new homes for what I can’t.

Most of the cats I had were placed, as well as others animals such as a boa constrictor, 2 burmese pythons, chinchillas, rabbits, guniea pigs and even down to rats. *my beloved rats* Who in their right mnd wants to save rats most would ask? I don’t just want to save “cute animals” but I do what I can with what I have. I even got a home of a pirannah ad a set of Oscars from our Chinese buffet which had closed sown.

Right now I’m left with my 5 cats, 3 dogs, 3 degus and a flying squirrel whom I all love and spend alot of money between vets and other expenses. They’re al well fed on Fancy Feast and Beneful (I used Iams until that whole pet food scare) I do what I can, when I can. I’m just not about to go picketing and dumping paint on people wearing fur so I thought a petition was a small step in the right direction seeing I can’t obviously go out and start adopting minks, foxes, and raccoons.

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[Skigod377]

Ack! Rats! Puh-tooey 😛 Just kidding. As for the petition, your heart is in the right place and that is commendable, but others are right… the petition will go nowhere. It is too broad and there are no statistics… no “fix” for the problem, etc etc. Plus… even if it DOES manage to get anywhere… it looks like it was written by a kid. Too many typos, more a rant than anything else. 🙁

[Mimi]

Even if that petition doesn’t go anywhere, it does help to raise awareness, and that’s a step in the right direction. As a result of the discussion on this thread, I’ve done some reading on related topics and have become aware of issues that I didn’t know about before, such as what various groups are doing to promote the humane treatment of farm animals. For example, take a look at what Whole Foods is doing.

I think a lot of people are unaware of what goes on in the farming and fur industries. Once people are aware of these practices, more and more people will start avoiding producers who treat animals cruelly, and they’ll be forced to change their ways if they want to sell anything. A good example is the way various stores, restaurants, etc. are now insisting on cage freeeggs.

I’m really glad that dragon started this thread, because now I’m going to look a lot more critically at the animal products that I buy, so that I can avoid products that were produced by inhumane means.

[Pam]

HSUS.. Another group I do not care for. They are slowly getting to be as bad as PETA. It is strange.. HSUS has SO much money, yet they do not own, opperate, or even fund a single animal shelter! What are they doing with all that money, besides trying to shut down animal breeders, shut down meat and fur producers, end exotic animal ownership (I AM an exotic owner BTW) and turn everyone vegitarian??

[Author]

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