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Dragon Master wrote:
well that is fine as long as we are all in the same ball!! Actually we are ON a ball it’s called the planet Earth
If everyone could just remember that, I think there would be a lot less conflict…sigh…
Greater Basilisk wrote:Here I strongly disagree, Mimi. Like Cheryl said, our system should not conform to outsiders. If the parents don’t know English, they should take lessons. The kids should pick up the language at school. If they can’t do that, they should take lessons too. Conforming the school system to fit foreigners encourages the foreigners to keep their own, not conform to us. They have little incentive to learn our language and ways if we’re fitting ourselves to them instead of vice versa. There’s no excuse for not learning the language – if that involves falling a year behind in school, accept it. They need to be ready to make sacrifices if you want to live in our country and contribute. With people going to school until they’re 30, there’s no way the kids can’t catch up.
Bottom line: Outsiders fit themselves in, not we fit ourselves around outsiders. This is why I find Mom’s not learning German in the past decade unforgivable. She preaches conformity to the host country, and she mostly keeps to that – except with the language. No excuse.I think you missed my point. My whole point was that the kids should be given the help that they need to learn the language. And I completely disagree that the educational system should not be set up to take into account the fact that kids who don’t speak English will need extra help. That’s like saying kids with learning disabilities shouldn’t be given special help.
I also think you don’t comprehend the situation that a lot of immigrants are faced with, though I’ve tried to explain it a bit in my previous post. They might want to learn English, but their first priority has to be making sure that their families have food and housing. This is completely different from your mom’s situation, where she simply made the choice not to learn German.
If you compare what immigrants did when the country was still young, I think it’s pretty clear that a lot of modern immigrants don’t have the get up and go that the old school ones did. They come here – to the States or Switzerland – expecting to be pandered to. Admittedly that’s a fault we’re responsible for. Of course foreign kids need help learning the language and math and biology with a teacher who can translate if they get confused. But for kids who can’t pick up the language quickly, there should be special schools, just like there are special schools for other disabilities. Leaving slow kids in normal classes is a hindrance to the whole education – another argument in favor of homeschooling. Mishmash isn’t the answer. It’s ridiculous to require American kids to learn Spanish in normal public schools. That’s my point.
Wow! I am so impressed that this discussion has stayed so civil with such a hot topic! 😯 I agree that people who move to a different country should make every effort to conform and learn the language, but I also feel that those who do not know English should be taught gently and without hostility towards who they are.
If I ever moved to Germany or Italy or Iceland, I would fully expect to have to learn German, Italian, or Icelandic. I would not expect them to learn English just so they could talk to me, and I would appreciate (but not EXPECT) a little patience and guidance as I make the transition.
My grandparents came from Cuba over 50 years ago, and my grandmother never made any attempt to learn English. She still criticizes me for not teaching my kids more Spanish (which is stupid on my part; it would be beneficial to them!), but it is infuriating that she blames ME for not being able to communicate with her great-grandchildren, when she has had over 50 years to make an effort to learn, dangit! 😡
All of my family members are now American citizens, but the older folks were able to take their tests and hear their ceremonies in Spanish because Miami has become such a Hispanic majority. I appreciate the kindness to them, but they weren’t doing them any favors. In my grandfather’s defense, he made a tremendous effort to learn English, but he had a very heavy accent that he never lost.
Anyway, I am so glad that you have all been so kind about sharing your opinions, this topic has been a great read for me! It is so wonderful to find a place where you can have an intelligent conversation/debate, and also have fun! Thanks, Chessie for starting it, and thanks everyone who has contributed. Please keep up the great conversations! 😀
Blessings,
Goldragon2!
Hey Chessie, if I moved to California or Oregon, do you think your mom could homeschool me? [Insert puppy dog eyed smiley batting eyelashes here] I would LOVE to learn sculpting and painting from the best! 😀
Greater Basilisk wrote:If you compare what immigrants did when the country was still young, I think it’s pretty clear that a lot of modern immigrants don’t have the get up and go that the old school ones did. They come here – to the States or Switzerland – expecting to be pandered to. Admittedly that’s a fault we’re responsible for.
People like that I have no patience for. People should expect to make their way through hard work instead of handouts. Its true that the system lets people take advantage, and that really needs to be fixed. On the other hand, there are a still a lot of immigrants who are still “old school” — great examples are the many CEO’s and executives of Silicon Valley companies who are immigrants.
Greater Basilisk wrote:Of course foreign kids need help learning the language and math and biology with a teacher who can translate if they get confused. But for kids who can’t pick up the language quickly, there should be special schools, just like there are special schools for other disabilities.
Perhaps that might be necessary for special cases where the kid takes years to pick up the language, but for most cases I think ESL (English as a second language) classes within regular public schools work quite well, and all of the schools that I’ve been to have had those. The curricula in those classes is similar to that of the regular classes, and the kids stay in those classes until their English has improved sufficiently for them to go to the regular classes.
Greater Basilisk wrote:Leaving slow kids in normal classes is a hindrance to the whole education – another argument in favor of homeschooling.
That’s never been a problem, at least in my area. The public school system has always had regular classes, classes/schools for kids with special needs, and gifted/honors/AP classes for talented kids.
Greater Basilisk wrote:Mishmash isn’t the answer. It’s ridiculous to require American kids to learn Spanish in normal public schools. That’s my point.
I don’t think they should be required to learn Spanish in particular, but I think it would be great if the public schools required kids to learn a foreign language of their choice at an early age — it would give them a real advantage in life, particularly in business. Look at the way schools in a lot of countries — Japan, India, etc. — teach English as part of the curriculum pretty much when the kids start school. That means that its a pretty standard thing for those kids to be fluent in at least two languages, while most kids in the US only know how to speak English. And nowadays, with so much business being conducted in other countries, and most of the world’s population in other countries, its a big advantage to be fluent in another language, as well as being familiar with other cultures. A lot of parents in my area feel the same way, which is why immersion programs have become very popular. One of my co-workers has a kid in the Spanish immersion program that’s described in that link, and from what I’ve heard from her, it sounds like its been a great experience for her kid so far. Many other co-workers and friends have their kids enrolled in other foreign language programs outside of school.
Goldragon2! wrote:I agree that people who move to a different country should make every effort to conform and learn the language, but I also feel that those who do not know English should be taught gently and without hostility towards who they are.
If I ever moved to Germany or Italy or Iceland, I would fully expect to have to learn German, Italian, or Icelandic. I would not expect them to learn English just so they could talk to me, and I would appreciate (but not EXPECT) a little patience and guidance as I make the transition.
I feel exactly the same way. Personally, I think it would be ridiculously inconvenient not to be able to speak/write the language if you lived in that country, which is why I find it hard to understand why GB’s mom refused to learn German even after so many years. I really realized what a difference that made when I started going to different countries on business. In Japan, I feel pretty awkward since the plant is in a rural area where very few people outside of the plant speak English, but in Malaysia, I feel much more comfortable. Even though a lot of people don’t speak English, a lot of them do speak Cantonese, which I speak fluently, and I can generally get around.Goldragon2! wrote:My grandparents came from Cuba over 50 years ago, and my grandmother never made any attempt to learn English. She still criticizes me for not teaching my kids more Spanish (which is stupid on my part; it would be beneficial to them!), but it is infuriating that she blames ME for not being able to communicate with her great-grandchildren, when she has had over 50 years to make an effort to learn, dangit! 😡
That’s hardly fair! 😯 Though I do agree that teaching them more Spanish is a very good thing. The friends I mentioned before who are a Mexican + Chinese couple have a kid, and its pretty neat that he’s learning Spanish and Chinese as well as English.
Goldragon2! wrote:In my grandfather’s defense, he made a tremendous effort to learn English, but he had a very heavy accent that he never lost.
That’s exactly the same case with my father.
Goldragon2! wrote:Anyway, I am so glad that you have all been so kind about sharing your opinions, this topic has been a great read for me! It is so wonderful to find a place where you can have an intelligent conversation/debate, and also have fun! Thanks, Chessie for starting it, and thanks everyone who has contributed. Please keep up the great conversations! 😀
I’ve enjoyed this topic a lot too! I think the discussions in this thread are the lengthiest and most in-depth out of all the ones that we’ve had so far.
Goldragon2! wrote:I think I am the only Hispanic in my town, and possibly the county. There are a handful of African-Americans here, but this hilbilly town isn’t the most welcoming to those who don’t have a whole lot of red on their necks.
It has taken them a long time to get used to me, and I still get a few stupid comments (derogatory to Hispanics or “spics” as we have been called) even after being here 20 years.
Its kind of amazing to me that people still have those kinds of attitudes in this day and age, but I guess that’s because I’ve lived in the Bay Area my whole life and have gotten used to a very multi-cultural environment. It occurred to me as I was reading your post that race isn’t something that I really notice, unless I consciously think about it — everyone is just a person to me. But now that I am thinking about it, I realize that a typical meeting at work usually has representatives from at least 4 or 5 different races. And a couple of months ago, I also happened to think about this when my boyfriend and I went to lunch with a Canadian friend. I suddenly realized that each of us had grown up in a different country, were each of different races, and had somehow happened to meet and become friends. It really made me appreciate the diversity of the area that I’m in.Cool, Mimi, we agree again. 😀 I do think it’s very beneficial for any person to know more than his own language, whether it’s Spanish or otherwise. So I agree that kids should learn a second language in school of their choosing – not Spanish by default. Spanish is not even a North American language – French and English are. That’s why with so many Latinos and Spanish-speakers (first or second language) we would need to be careful that the emphasis is still on English, but unfortunately, that’s where the system goes wrong.
mimitrek wrote:Greater Basilisk wrote:Leaving slow kids in normal classes is a hindrance to the whole education – another argument in favor of homeschooling.
That’s never been a problem, at least in my area. The public school system has always had regular classes, classes/schools for kids with special needs, and gifted/honors/AP classes for talented kids.
Those are the same classes/programs offered in the public school system in my area as well. Here, “slow” kids are not put in the same classes with more advanced students.
I have been trying to get my son into an immersion class forever! Knowlege is power and I would love for him to learn a second or third language. I really wish they taught sign language. That is one I would be interested in learning.
mimitrek wrote:ddvm wrote:Dragon Master wrote:I have ALWAYS hated all the little groups that everyone has put themselves in.
How about this one I’m HUMAN!! One race the HUMAN RACE!!I always get a mental picture of humans running around in giant hamster balls when people say the human race 😀
Which is actually very close to the truth… 😆
I thought that was exactly what I was doing. Running aroung in circles trying to pay the bills
WOW again a very heated debate. i think all kids should learn a second or third language if possible. My sister speaks French fluently and I have always regretted not learning Spanish back in grade school like she did. She started in 6th grade and took classes all thru college and has lived in Quebec and France. BUT you shoudl be required to learn and speak the native language of whatever country you live in before you can become a citizen. You are asking that country to host you and saying you want to live there for what tye stand for but how can you if you do not speak their language???
skigod377 wrote:I have been trying to get my son into an immersion class forever! Knowlege is power and I would love for him to learn a second or third language.
What language have you been trying to get? Actually, what languages do they offer where you are?
skigod377 wrote:I really wish they taught sign language. That is one I would be interested in learning.
I was interested in learning that too. I was really thinking about taking that at one of the community colleges around here…but its something that I never got around to doing.
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