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John wrote:
Since when is the idea of creating a stable internal economy a “radical” idea?
Ever since technology reached the point where it became profitable and practical to do outsourcing in its various forms, and became a standard practice for most companies. Of course, by “radical” I meant different from current mainstream thinking, and I assume by “stable internal economy” you meant an economy that’s confined to the specific country itself.
John wrote:If you have a stable closed economy and create technical advances from which the rest of the world can benefit (and many countries can do that) why can’t you simply give that technology to the remaining countries that need it? I don’t see what, besides world corporate dominance, would prevent the dissemination of technology and information. (This may stick in the anti Socialist craw?).
Well, first of all, to be able to have a stable closed economy you would have to assume that all other nations were willing to do the same, otherwise its not realistic. If there was only one country which was closed, it would be severely disadvantageous for the reasons that I had mentioned in my previous posts.
In regards to disseminating technologies, I think having a closed economy would have a huge impact on less advanced countries. Since all of the economies are closed, they couldn’t receive any imports from more technologically advanced countries (like the US), and those countries also would not have any plants or factories built by the US. So the only way they could get those products is to for them to send students to our universities to learn, bring back that knowledge to their own countries, and then teach others so that they could make it themselves. But with a closed economy, our companies wouldn’t hire any of those students or build any factories in their countries.
So then where would these students obtain the specific knowledge of how to apply what they learned in school to actually build a product? The only way would be for these students (now scientists, engineers, etc.) to go through the same research and development efforts and make the same discoveries from scratch — which means that it would take them a long time to actually get to the point where they have a viable product, even assuming that they already have the relevant technologies/infrastructure in place — since our companies would have absolutely no incentive to give them that knowledge for free. And what assurance would a company have that their trade secrets, which give them a competitive advantage, wouldn’t get leaked to a competitor in the US?
So the bottom line is that the foreign students would have general knowledge but no specific knowledge that could be used immediately to improve their standard of living. One good way to illustrate this point is to look at semiconductor manufacturing. Nowadays, semiconductors are essential components in computers and just about every other electronic device. So a foreign country would have to learn how to make all of the different types of semiconductors in each device before they could build it, and the process needed to make each type of semiconductor is different. To give you an idea — it would take experienced technologists, who had created an existing process, two years to create an improved process based on the existing one. For inexperienced technologists to create a technology from scratch would take many times as long.
John wrote:There is no doubt that the importation of Japanese cars was the turning point for the improvement in the quality of American cars. Which were horrible. (The Japanese learned the art and advantage of quality perfection from the statistician Edwards Deming and other Americans who were sent to Japan after WW2 to get them back on track. They listened and learned while American industry ignored Deming and his cohorts)
I think the US is definitely behind the Japanese when it comes to manufacturing. One critical component of high quality is meticulous, conscientious workers, and they have those in abundance because most everyone in their culture considers it a matter of personal honor to do their job as well as possible. This certainly isn’t true in the US. For example, my company has fabs (fabrication facilities for processing wafers) in the US and in Japan. In our Japanese fabs, every rule is followed meticulously, and if an operator notices anything wrong, he/she will immediately take action. Strictly controlling particles, and hence minimizing defects, is vital to successful wafer processing. At one time when I was visiting one of our Japanese fabs, I changed into my cleanroom suit but didn’t notice that I had one piece of hair sticking out. As soon as I came out of the air shower, one of the operators noticed that and pointed it out to me, and asked me to go back into the cleanroom to fix that. Contrast that to the operators in our US fabs, who will go into a break room and eat without bothering to change out of their cleanroom suits — and then go right back into the fab! Of course they only do this on the night shift, when they think no one will notice them (a friend of mine actually saw them).
John wrote:What has happened as a result of the flow of cheap goods from China and other countries is that, while non essential goods (electronics and the like) has gotten more affordable, the essentials (food, rents, etc), which cannot be outsourced, have, with the resulting loss in middle income jobs, become relatively expensive and are consuming as high a percentage of our incomes as they ever did (I suspect a much higher percentage but I don’t know the exact numbers). So where is the net gain from the flow of cheap goods?
While some people’s incomes might have suffered (namely, those whose income was reduced by places like Walmart), I think those people are much fewer than the number of people who are benefiting from the cheap goods, so I think that there is a net gain. Of course, that’s just my impression, because I don’t know the exact numbers either. One other positive thing is that the lower prices do help keep inflation in check.
John wrote:It is enabling Wal-mart and the likes to put Main Street USA out of business, export profits from local communities, lower wages and, you guessed it, put even Windstone on the verge of extinction. And it is burning up the worlds resources of materials and energy at an even faster rate. Global warming? That too.
What you mentioned is very true, and those are definitely the main drawbacks. Personally, I don’t shop at Walmart (except for squirrel food, they’re the only local store that carries the best kind), but I’m lucky enough to be able to afford to do that. The problem is, I think there are a lot of people who can’t, and places like Walmart actually improve their quality of life significantly.
Dragon Master wrote:My sister is a college professor and they only way she could pay off her student loans (she got her Phd soit cost alot and took a long time) is by working in Kuwait. She is a professor at the American University in Kuwait. It’s really sad that she should have to go to such a unfriendly American country just to get out of debt.
Why didnt she get a grant? There are soooo many out there that almost everyone who truly wants a college education can get one.
Dragon Master wrote:They also need to figure out a way for people to get a college education without doing what she did. She told me she owes over $100,000 for her education,THAT IS CRAZY!!! But how else could she get her education??
Join the Army. 100% tuition assistance. I think everyone should have to do two years in the Army right after highschool unless they go to college. (Like in Korea) Think of how much more educated our society would be! It would also teach dicipline and get people a JOB! Plus, that would fill our ranks with more people who wanted to be here because everyone would get to try it out and some are bound to like it. I am so tired of hearing folks complain about not finding a job. If you really wanted to work, there are options out there. The same thing with going to school. If you really want to, you can do it. there are ways.
I agree that if you want to make a success of your self you can. I’m not sure why my sister did thngs the way she did. It’s not my debt. She has said she will make enough in Kuwait to pay off her student loans so that is good
John wrote:I will briefly bring this back on topic, and again back off.
Thats the spirit!
John wrote:Next, if there are any doubts left about the value of home schooling then you need to reread the posts from our voice in Switzerland! All of them.
Here! Here!
I think the quality of education were left totally up to the parents, then we (society) would suffer. There are too many uneducated parents out there and for this reason, a public school system is great. I think if a parent has the knowledge, resources, and motivation to provide their child an education, it will far surpass the public school standards. I do wish the standards in schools were higher. Im tired of our country looking like a laughing stock when it comes to education 😕
John wrote:What has happened as a result of the flow of cheap goods from China and other countries is that, while non essential goods (electronics and the like) has gotten more affordable, the essentials (food, rents, etc), which cannot be outsourced, have, with the resulting loss in middle income jobs, become relatively expensive and are consuming as high a percentage of our incomes as they ever did (I suspect a much higher percentage but I don’t know the exact numbers). So where is the net gain from the flow of cheap goods? It is enabling Wal-mart and the likes to put Main Street USA out of business, export profits from local communities, lower wages and, you guessed it, put even Windstone on the verge of extinction. And it is burning up the worlds resources of materials and energy at an even faster rate. Global warming? That too.
It always comes back to Wal-mart 🙁 😡 I think the main problem is a lack of proper education and the availability of cheap labor. (Once agian this ties into immigration) While the most skilled and best educated thrive in our current economy, its the middle class that suffers.
John wrote:I’m getting hungry and this seems like a good enough place to quit. Wow, what a thread! Damn smartass homeschoolers!
Yeah! Smartass homeschoolers!!
mimitrek wrote:mimitrek wrote:Given how the population is growing, I think the only thing that we can do is to have policies that are as environmentally conscious as possible. There’s just no way to produce enough food to feed everyone unless we use modern agriculture, which means huge farms. I remember reading that with modern farms you could support something like 200 times as many people per acre as you could with hunting/foraging.
You are right. Thats the dang Neolithic Revolution that started that! And look what happened! The first population explosion! I think the population needs to stop growing. Here I expect arguments. I think folks should not be allowed to have more than 4 kids, max.
The cost of living where I am is so high that its rare to find anyone with more than two kids! None of my friends are planning to have more than 2…a lot of them have only 1 and don’t plan to have any more…and some don’t plan to have kids. 4 kids… *shudder* …its frightening to think how much money you’d have to make to support 4 kids and put them through college.
And right there is part of the problem. People with education plan ahead and most these days are only having one or two kids because that is all they can afford to put through college and because most educated people are starting families later and later. Also, concern about the population explosion stop some people from having more than one or two kids. (J.R. Robb’s In Death series has a zero population plan) But people with little or no education are still having 4 or 5 or 6 kids. Who will grow up unable to afford education and then have multiple kids who can’t afford education. It’s a viscious cycle but how do you stop it? Americans would never stand for what China did – and that created their own problems (too many bachelors, elder care issues).
Please don’t think I’m saying people without education are stupid – just that in today’s world it helps to have a degree. My brother-in-law is one of the smartest people I know and even better he has a great deal of common sense but he doesn’t have a degree. He has a great deal of trouble finding a job (he manages mills) because all the jobs he is good at want a degree. But once he gets a job he usually ends up running the place and the guys with the degrees consult with him constantly. But he has to get the job first….
But how do you limit the population? Enforced birth control? Forced sterilization? Incentives to only have one child? All the answers seem to be out of futuristic science fiction.
Greater Basilisk wrote:There are only a few points left that I want to disagree with. The example with Japan, Mimi: They’ve adopted Western values, yes – and have gone psychotic. Look at how their young folk run around, in crazy colors, constantly wired to the latest, best gadget that isn’t even available elsewhere in the world. Look at the unbelievable rate of suicide. Those people are under a lot of stress, breaking with their old culture and trying to fit the Western system. The Western values they adopted in order to fit in the business world are in direct conflict with the natural emphasis of their Shinto culture, and it shows in the people.
I disagree here. I don’t think adopting Western values/culture is responsible for the problems that you mentioned. The high suicide rate is a direct result of the fact that suicide has been an accepted practice in their culture for hundreds of years, and its been something that’s been considered honorable and even admirable in years past. There’s no question that the people there are under a lot of stress, but that results from the extremely high population density and their own culture — there are a large number of very competitive, motivated people competing for the same houses, jobs, schools, etc. Its not surprising that people in Japan are under a lot of pressure, a lot more so than in most countries.
I also don’t think that their young people’s penchant for crazy colors, latest gadgets, etc. reflects anything negative at all. The gadget craze over there is due in large part to the fact that the young people, in particular, need a way to spend their money. The cost of living in Tokyo is #3 in the world right now, and housing prices are so astronomical that there’s no way that young people can buy a house. So of course they spend it on other things. That’s also probably part of the reason that young folks in Silicon Valley are more gadget crazy than the rest of the US — though part of it is also because we have such a high concentration of engineers here. And our young people here have there own crazes…look at that baggy pants craze for one…
Greater Basilisk wrote:Now discussing cultures and their effects is very difficult because a lot of effects aren’t readily visible, but I think too often people forget that cultures are the spice of life, and trying to mash different ones up and assimilate everything into blue jeans and coke isn’t good for anybody. People are unequal, different, there are rich and poor, there are Christian values and there are Hindu values, fundamentally different, ingrained in the respective societies, and that trying to fit them around each other makes problems.
My view on this is very different. Doubtless there will be certain points of conflict when cultures are mingled, but in general I think the mingling of cultures is a very positive thing. It increases diversity, and gives people a lot more options. People can simply choose the values that suit them better personally, and I’ve seen that happen many times in the countries that I’ve visited. For example, my colleagues in China (my company also has a plant there) are very Westernized, but they still retain many cultural values such as very close knit families and feeling that its all important to take care of their parents in their old age.
In Silicon Valley, I think the mingling of cultures is perhaps more prevalent than anywhere else in the US, with so many engineers, scientists, etc. from so many different countries all in one place — and this is added to the fact that California in general is already a magnet for immigrants. I’ve been able to see how people from many cultures combine US values with their own, and I see many examples of how the best of both cultures is being combined. And I think the cultural diversity really enriches everyone’s lives. For one, the festivals of a lot of countries are celebrated and people around here can partake in all of them — I personally find those to be a lot of fun. Another benefit of the diversity is that people are actually able to pick up good values from other cultures, and people learn to be very tolerant of differences, probably much more so than in a lot of other parts of the country.
Greater Basilisk wrote:There are exceptions, like your black friend and his Japanese wife – but exception confirm the rule. My mom is American, Dad is Swiss – they’ve been happily married for nearly 20 years but there is no question that inter-cultural marriages take even more work and sacrifice to maintain than normal ones. Culture makes a huge difference – even cultures so comparatively similar as American and Swiss.
I was really surprised when I read this, because in my experience inter-cultural marriages don’t really seem any different than any others in terms of the work that’s needed to maintain them. About half of my friends have inter-cultural marriages — Mexican + Chinese, Chinese Canadian + Japanese, Indian + Australian, African Canadian + Japanese, Sri Lankan + Indonesian, Korean + American, to name a few. I also have an inter-cultural relationship — my boyfriend is Sri Lankan, and I’m a second generation Chinese American. What I’ve observed with myself and the other couples I know is that the relationship develops because the two people have a lot of common interests/values and compatible lifestyles, even though they come from different cultures. So in a way this eliminates a lot of the potential cultural clashes already, because if either person had fundamental differences in values/lifestyle because of their culture, they wouldn’t be able to have a stable relationship in the first place. The fact that there are two cultures involved just means that each person gets the benefits of experiencing another culture firsthand. In my own relationship, I haven’t noticed any problems that have resulted from cultural differences. All of the problems that have come up during the past 4+ years are like those of any other relationship, and they stem from the fact that we’re two separate people who might not always have the same opinion. That seems to be true for the other inter-cultural couples that I know too.
So I’m really curious — what kind of differences between Swiss and American cultures have caused problems? I’d always thought that those cultures were very similar.
Greater Basilisk wrote:And here we get to Vive le resistance! Yes! But seeing Ski post that brought up an interesting thought. The American settlers threw off England over a matter of less than 10% tax, saying it was illegal, much too much. (I forget the exact amount.) We sit here, paying 50% taxes, watching while a president runs rampant against the will of Congress and the people in a futile endeavor , runs up a debt that can never be paid, lets in hundreds of thousands of undesirable illegals every year. We watch the system bankrupt itself. Most people know there’s a problem. Most people – that I’d run into; I could be wrong – know we desperately need a big change. And yet nothing happens. I firmly believe that the American revolt against Brit tyranny was justified. I think something like the Spirit of 1776 is way overdue here. But what can we do?
I’m irritated because Christians like to push off any radical action against the government with the “Be subject unto those those above you” passage. But personally I believe that we have even more reason to throw off this government before it ruins us than the men of 1776 had to throw off the Brits.
All we need is a George Washington. And therein lies the problem.Well, there were a lot more serious issues at stake back then than just paying 10% more tax — taxation without representation, violation of civil liberties, (e.g., forced quartering of soldiers in people’s homes), unfair trade laws that were financially detrimental to the colonists, etc. I think the bottom line is that the problems back then had a much more negative, tangible effect on people’s lives than the problems that we have now. And most importantly, in 1776 the upper classes were the ones who were being negatively impacted. So essentially the ones who had the power to bring about change had an strong incentive to do it. But nowadays, the government is run by the rich, and the rich are doing fine.
Its great that we can have a discussion like this on the forum! I’m really enjoying hearing everyone’s different viewpoints on things.
ddvm wrote:mimitrek wrote:skigod377 wrote:mimitrek wrote:Given how the population is growing, I think the only thing that we can do is to have policies that are as environmentally conscious as possible. There’s just no way to produce enough food to feed everyone unless we use modern agriculture, which means huge farms. I remember reading that with modern farms you could support something like 200 times as many people per acre as you could with hunting/foraging.
You are right. Thats the dang Neolithic Revolution that started that! And look what happened! The first population explosion! I think the population needs to stop growing. Here I expect arguments. I think folks should not be allowed to have more than 4 kids, max.
The cost of living where I am is so high that its rare to find anyone with more than two kids! None of my friends are planning to have more than 2…a lot of them have only 1 and don’t plan to have any more…and some don’t plan to have kids. 4 kids… *shudder* …its frightening to think how much money you’d have to make to support 4 kids and put them through college.
And right there is part of the problem. People with education plan ahead and most these days are only having one or two kids because that is all they can afford to put through college and because most educated people are starting families later and later. Also, concern about the population explosion stop some people from having more than one or two kids. (J.R. Robb’s In Death series has a zero population plan) But people with little or no education are still having 4 or 5 or 6 kids. Who will grow up unable to afford education and then have multiple kids who can’t afford education. It’s a viscious cycle but how do you stop it? Americans would never stand for what China did – and that created their own problems (too many bachelors, elder care issues).
Please don’t think I’m saying people without education are stupid – just that in today’s world it helps to have a degree. My brother-in-law is one of the smartest people I know and even better he has a great deal of common sense but he doesn’t have a degree. He has a great deal of trouble finding a job (he manages mills) because all the jobs he is good at want a degree. But once he gets a job he usually ends up running the place and the guys with the degrees consult with him constantly. But he has to get the job first….
But how do you limit the population? Enforced birth control? Forced sterilization? Incentives to only have one child? All the answers seem to be out of futuristic science fiction.
I think what you mentioned is the key — we need to break the vicious cycle. And to do that, we need to educate those kids who are not getting educated now.I think that part’s really difficult, and its not because poor kids can’t go to college. In the US, anyone with sufficient motivation can go to college if they want to. I think the difficult thing is that kids’ attitudes are learned from their parents — including their motivation for bettering themselves. So I think the best solution is to use the educational system and other programs to change those kids’ attitudes. I think one good example of that are the Big Brother and Big Sister programs where kids like that can learn from a good role model.
By the way, why doesn’t your brother-in-law get his degree? It sounds like that would make things a lot easier for him.
He is thinking about it. He’s in his late forties(he’s older than my sister) and they have 2 young kids. But my sister makes good money so I know he’s been talking about it. But he is definitely of the mindset that the husband provides for the family so not working while his wife does would be hard on him. But his last couple of jobs have been a disaster so I think he is leaning toward getting a degree.
I think education is definitely one of the keys for the future. On all different levels. I’ve read 2 very different books by very different people who talk about this.
Our Declining Moral Values by Jimmy Carter is a great book whether you believe him or not – it makes you think. He talks about education in something as basic as sex education. According to him the US is behind all other developed countries when it comes to sex education – and we have the highest abortion rate when compared to them. He stresses education is key to the future.
The other book is I May be Wrong but I Doubt It by Charles Barkley (I’m a huge basketball fan). I know he sometimes puts his foot down his throat but he had some very interesting things to say in that book not just about education but racism. He pointed out that when he was a child the people in the neighborhood wanted better for the kids. His parents invited the neighborhood “winos” to Christmas dinner and they all told him the same thing: Don’t do what we did, get out and get an education. But these days people in the neighborhoods instead seem to resent anyone who does better than them and they don’t support the kids. This was, of course, a generality -there are a lot of very dedicated people not to mention parents that work hard for the kids. But he makes the point that the parents have the strongest impact on the kids – that if they push the kids toward more education a lot of the kids will find a way to get it.
As a case in point – myself. I posted earlier that I went to Catholic grade school and high school. My dad was out of work for several years during that time so I went to HS on a scholarship and worked several diffent jobs. I went to college on scholarship, student loans and odd jobs. It took me nearly a decade to pay the loans back. But from the time I was a kid my mother always talked about how she and my dad expected myself and my 3 sisters to get a college degree. She was a teacher but her dad who didn’t finish high school also talked about a college degree. Pop Pop died when I was ten but I still remember him telling me that if I was smart I would stay in school and get a degree. I was incredibly lucky – my whole family pushed toward education. I wish more kids could have that much support.
ddvm wrote:He is thinking about it. He’s in his late forties(he’s older than my sister) and they have 2 young kids. But my sister makes good money so I know he’s been talking about it. But he is definitely of the mindset that the husband provides for the family so not working while his wife does would be hard on him. But his last couple of jobs have been a disaster so I think he is leaning toward getting a degree.
That’s good, I hope he does.
ddvm wrote:I think education is definitely one of the keys for the future. On all different levels. I’ve read 2 very different books by very different people who talk about this.
Our Declining Moral Values by Jimmy Carter is a great book whether you believe him or not – it makes you think. He talks about education in something as basic as sex education. According to him the US is behind all other developed countries when it comes to sex education – and we have the highest abortion rate when compared to them. He stresses education is key to the future.
That sounds interesting. I’m going to check it out.ddvm wrote:The other book is I May be Wrong but I Doubt It by Charles Barkley (I’m a huge basketball fan). I know he sometimes puts his foot down his throat but he had some very interesting things to say in that book not just about education but racism. He pointed out that when he was a child the people in the neighborhood wanted better for the kids. His parents invited the neighborhood “winos” to Christmas dinner and they all told him the same thing: Don’t do what we did, get out and get an education. But these days people in the neighborhoods instead seem to resent anyone who does better than them and they don’t support the kids. This was, of course, a generality -there are a lot of very dedicated people not to mention parents that work hard for the kids. But he makes the point that the parents have the strongest impact on the kids – that if they push the kids toward more education a lot of the kids will find a way to get it.
As a case in point – myself. I posted earlier that I went to Catholic grade school and high school. My dad was out of work for several years during that time so I went to HS on a scholarship and worked several diffent jobs. I went to college on scholarship, student loans and odd jobs. It took me nearly a decade to pay the loans back. But from the time I was a kid my mother always talked about how she and my dad expected myself and my 3 sisters to get a college degree. She was a teacher but her dad who didn’t finish high school also talked about a college degree. Pop Pop died when I was ten but I still remember him telling me that if I was smart I would stay in school and get a degree. I was incredibly lucky – my whole family pushed toward education. I wish more kids could have that much support.
Me too — it would make such a huge difference in their lives and break that vicious cycle that we were talking about.There was also a big emphasis on education in my family, and I also think the parents are the key. It sounds like all of us who have been joining the discussion in this thread are in agreement on that.
Wow, I’ve got a lot to catch up on. Step by step…
Whatsa matter, Ski – you like Wal-Mart?
Mimi – figured we’d probably disagree fundamentally on the culture clash thing. I don’t think it’s a problem when cultures meet. It’s good that people should see how much diversity there is in the world and learn not to judge on sight – that kind of thing. But clashes are another thing, when fundamentally different cultures need to get around each other as they’re forcibly confined to a certain area. And there’s no arguing that Shinto and (post-)Christian Western cultures are different. It’s more obvious comparing the West to Hindus, Muslims, Africans, though, agreed. The points you mentioned about Japanese kids certainly would play in. But there’s no way two cultures can mingle like they do in Japan or India, especially in such a short time, without confusing and upsetting the people.
I’ll fall back on an example here. Here in Switzerland our big foreigner problem is mostly the Balkanesi – Albanians, Croatians, Macedonians, that kind of stuff, and Africans. They’re even forbidden to buy weapons. Switzerland’s population consists of 20% foreigners (!!!sick!) who are responsible for 70% of the crime. A lot of them are Muslim. They’re constantly in fights with other Balkanesi or Turks or Swiss. They race cars on the roads and build huge accidents. They break into houses. Whenever the paper reports another robbery or attack, you can be sure that the perpetrator is an African or a Balkanesi. That’s not a coincidence. They can do it in their country, in their culture, and they come here and continue. The same can be said for the Latinos in the States. When cultures meet, it’s fine. But one has to assert itself, and the West had better, for its own good and survival, start asserting itself on its own land. In other countries the native culture will obviously have the upper hand, but when they try to fit in the Western culture to be accepted into the business world, it causes problems. There’s no getting around the natural differences without a lot of upheaval. See India.
Inter-cultural marriage – Swiss and American cultures are similar. Basically the only “problem” is that Mom misses living in the States – and that she refused to learn German. That last is a real embarrassment and, in my eyes, her one unforgivable fault. We’ve been here for more than 12 years and I still have to make phone calls for her. I don’t know why she didn’t bother. She always closes up when I ask. I have a feeling she didn’t want to turn her back on America or something, but I just find it wrong. I’m a proud American citizen and I speak fluent German and have taken more to the Swiss culture to the American one. That’s another example of cultural differences: There are some things about Americans that really annoy me whenever I go over. Wastefulness, unpunctuality and an appalling lack of sense about the rest of the world and their own political situation come to mind.
The reasons for the War for Independence were many. Of course. No war is started over one reason. I still think that now we’re putting up with a lot more than the first Americans did and we don’t have the guts to do anything about it. They did.
Now about the kids. I have four brothers and Dad works at a high-paying job. Mimi said it right – the kids aren’t the problem, the parents are. If somebody has the willpower they can get an education, maybe not university, but enough to get them a job. Taxing people with more than an arbitrary number of children is not a good idea. Children are a blessing and a necessity. They just need to be from the right people. So if immigration were finally cut back, real Americans could have all the kids they wanted, the nation would continue in American culture and standards, and we wouldn’t have a lot of leech descendants from foreigners who come in demanding welfare.
How do I always manage to chatter for so long? I’m glad you don’t mind discussing this. It’s a good experience for me to see other people’s points of view, practice rhetoric and tie in new arguments. Thanks!I am not saying that folks should not have children, im saying folks that cant support, raise, and educate their children should not have children. I also think that the NUMBER of children people have should be reasonable, at least until we handle the overpopulation.
As for cross cultures… Here I dissagree. When cultures mingle and people from different cultures marry, traditions are lost. Two people may indeed practice both cultures in a household and teach their kids the same, but things are inevitable lost when this happens. The children will forget, or the parents will not practice extreme traditions that may upset thier partner, etc etc. These cultures dwindle into some new form of culture where the children have picked and chosen what to follow. If they continue to marry, the same thing will happen and eventually, the culture will be unrecognizable. People call America the melting pot. Well, right now its more like a stew. We have different cultures mixed in with our culture, but eventually, that stew will boil down into one big mush where one culture is not discernable from another.
GB, there has got to be a personal reason your mom does not want to learn German. With us in the military, its just lazyness! We know that most of the Germans speak English, so why bother learning German when we really dont have to? Im not saying me… I took two semesters of German when I got here just because I wanted a better grasp on the language. The thing is, I hardly ever get to use it. I have forgotten most of what I learned, though I still know more than the average American. Its just hard to convince people to learn something that hard when its not required, we dont get anything for it, and in 2-3 years, we will have no more need of it anyway.
The jails: Whack em.skigod377 wrote:As for cross cultures… Here I dissagree. When cultures mingle and people from different cultures marry, traditions are lost. Two people may indeed practice both cultures in a household and teach their kids the same, but things are inevitable lost when this happens. The children will forget, or the parents will not practice extreme traditions that may upset thier partner, etc etc. These cultures dwindle into some new form of culture where the children have picked and chosen what to follow. If they continue to marry, the same thing will happen and eventually, the culture will be unrecognizable. People call America the melting pot. Well, right now its more like a stew. We have different cultures mixed in with our culture, but eventually, that stew will boil down into one big mush where one culture is not discernable from another.
That’s not too much a disagreement, actually. Those are the facts. But it doesn’t mean they’re ideal. And the fact also remains that one culture will assert itself over the rest. Switzerland has four cultures, four languages – but we get along fine, Röstigraben notwithstanding, because we have a dominant language and system: German. The West needs to keep in its culture. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want any Muslim influence. North Africa was a flourishing trade area – until the Arabs came in. Now look at it.
Ditto on the kids and jails.
Sorry – the book by Jimmy Carter is Our Endangered Values – America’s Moral Crisis not Our Declining Moral Values. A Freudian slip?
Greater Basilisk wrote:Mimi – figured we’d probably disagree fundamentally on the culture clash thing. I don’t think it’s a problem when cultures meet. It’s good that people should see how much diversity there is in the world and learn not to judge on sight – that kind of thing. But clashes are another thing, when fundamentally different cultures need to get around each other as they’re forcibly confined to a certain area. And there’s no arguing that Shinto and (post-)Christian Western cultures are different. It’s more obvious comparing the West to Hindus, Muslims, Africans, though, agreed. The points you mentioned about Japanese kids certainly would play in. But there’s no way two cultures can mingle like they do in Japan or India, especially in such a short time, without confusing and upsetting the people.
I guess we just have different views on this — I don’t see the changes that occur when cultures meet as a negative thing. I think any upheaval, confusion, or upset are just natural things that occur as the world civilization evolves…kind of analogous to the way a climate change would cause ecosystems/species to change and evolve.
Greater Basilisk wrote:I’ll fall back on an example here. Here in Switzerland our big foreigner problem is mostly the Balkanesi – Albanians, Croatians, Macedonians, that kind of stuff, and Africans. They’re even forbidden to buy weapons. Switzerland’s population consists of 20% foreigners (!!!sick!) who are responsible for 70% of the crime. A lot of them are Muslim. They’re constantly in fights with other Balkanesi or Turks or Swiss. They race cars on the roads and build huge accidents. They break into houses. Whenever the paper reports another robbery or attack, you can be sure that the perpetrator is an African or a Balkanesi. That’s not a coincidence. They can do it in their country, in their culture, and they come here and continue. The same can be said for the Latinos in the States.
What you mentioned is really interesting, and it does sound very similar to Latinos and blacks in the US. You can say that the Latinos have a different culture because they recently came from another country, but how about blacks? Of course they were severely disadvantaged to begin with because of slavery, but hundreds of years have passed and they have much higher crime rates and poverty levels than whites — while minorities such as Asians have done much better even though they may have started out in a similarly disadvantaged situation. I think this all goes to show how important the influence of parents are, and how hard it is to break out of a vicious cycle.
Greater Basilisk wrote:Inter-cultural marriage – Swiss and American cultures are similar. Basically the only “problem” is that Mom misses living in the States – and that she refused to learn German. That last is a real embarrassment and, in my eyes, her one unforgivable fault. We’ve been here for more than 12 years and I still have to make phone calls for her. I don’t know why she didn’t bother. She always closes up when I ask. I have a feeling she didn’t want to turn her back on America or something, but I just find it wrong.
Do enough people/businesses in Switzerland speak English such that she can get by without knowing how to speak German? Though I imagine that it must be pretty inconvenient in general…
Greater Basilisk wrote:I’m a proud American citizen and I speak fluent German and have taken more to the Swiss culture to the American one.That’s another example of cultural differences: There are some things about Americans that really annoy me whenever I go over. Wastefulness, unpunctuality and an appalling lack of sense about the rest of the world and their own political situation come to mind.
Those things really annoy me too. I’ve found that Chinese culture is much better when it comes to not being wasteful, and Sri Lankan culture is much worse when it comes to being punctual. I’ve found through associating with my boyfriend’s relatives that its considered completely normal in Sri Lankan culture to arrive an hour late, and have dinner 2 hours after the scheduled time. Chinese culture is really bad in this respect too — its very typical for wedding banquets to start 2 hours late, which I find extremely annoying because I always arrive on time.
Greater Basilisk wrote:The reasons for the War for Independence were many. Of course. No war is started over one reason. I still think that now we’re putting up with a lot more than the first Americans did and we don’t have the guts to do anything about it. They did.
I think it would be more accurate to say that we don’t have the incentive to do anything about it. As I mentioned, the people in power (i.e., the upper classes) certainly don’t, which wasn’t the case back in 1776. And no one else really does either because all of their needs are basically being met — even the poor people can get by thanks to welfare. Of course, I think if things ever get to the point where most of the middle class has become the poor, a lot of people will have the incentive to do something…and things might change.
Greater Basilisk wrote:How do I always manage to chatter for so long? I’m glad you don’t mind discussing this. It’s a good experience for me to see other people’s points of view, practice rhetoric and tie in new arguments. Thanks!
I think this has been a very nice discussion and I really enjoyed it! Its not surprising that we disagree on some things, and its interesting to see opposing points of view.
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