Custom PYO sales

[John]

[John]

Let’s see how this works.

Seems like there are several factors we need to consider, such as:

1. How many of these custom painted pieces (including the non PYO stuff) can we sell?
2. How many do the both of you have time to paint?
3. Will you have time to paint commissioned PYO pieces anyway?
4. If you do, would the collectors rather have them come through us and be “officially sanctioned” pieces?
5. What does you guys the most good as far as future reputation and job, or professional, security?
6. Why haven’t we all been able to retire to the Bahamas by now?

So theres a start.

[Jennifer]

1. How many of these custom painted pieces (including the non PYO stuff) can we sell?

I honestly don’t know! How have the trends been in the past for ‘saturating’ eBay with any given sculpture? Do the prices go down? Up? Stay the same?
I don’t even know if you guys are keeping track of that, with the insanity that has been the last year!

There is a balance here, and I’ll be darned if I know exactly where it’s at. There will always be someone that wants to buy these things, because there are so many ways to paint them (I won’t say infinite but even if I, for example, painted a PYO phoenix for every distinct bird species, I wouldn’t be done for the next 50 years!). That said, to have people spend MUCH on them really depends on two things; having a small number collectors that have a lot of disposable income (which I think is where we are at now), which is risky given that disposable income can dry up fast for any multitudes of reasons… or by gathering NEW collectors that have disposable income. I think the future of these special, expensive custom pieces depends on getting new people as collectors… and of course, the economy being kind to people’s finances.

We have already seen some of the biggest spenders here on the forum stop buying expensive pieces… or stop collecting altogether, because they either don’t have the income they once had, or they’ve finally maxed out credit cards on getting these things and now will be paying them off for some time. We’ve also seen some new ‘big spenders’ trickle in. I suppose the answer to this question ties into everything else… can we get Windstone advertised well? Will the economy pick up?

2. How many do the both of you have time to paint?

How many… PYOs? Or Artists Editions production cast pieces? How many hours do you want put into these? I suppose it depends on how well they sell. If we are making bank on them pretty regularly, it’s easier to ‘make’ more time for painting them because everyone involved can afford to do so.

3. Will you have time to paint commissioned PYO pieces anyway?

Commissions are a pain. I have been doing commission work in one way or another since I was 17, and while I couldn’t have survived as an artist, financially, without them… they do wear on you! Mind, the forum members here seem to be pretty easy going when it comes to commissions. I’ve done art commissions for them (not related to Windstone) and have done a few trades were I’ve done a PYO for them. But, the process has the potential to be really tricky, and no matter what it is more time consuming. Instead of sitting down to paint and doing what I want to paint, end of story (within reason)… I need to continually be in contact with the client, making sure this looks right, no change this, this needs more red, etc etc. It is often a matter of doing some work, taking a photo, and sitting and waiting for the other person to answer email. It’s interruptive and takes longer, in general.
That said, there have been times, such as when Windstone was moving and there was no flow of money, that I would have welcomed the income from commissions despite the time sink. Personal art commissions are what got me by, anyhow.

So, I don’t like doing commissions, and don’t like the time it takes, but would do them if my bills were looming!

4. If you do, would the collectors rather have them come through us and be “officially sanctioned” pieces?

I think you are looking at two groups here. There are the collectors, that really like certain pieces and would rather them be “Officially sanctioned” Windstone pieces! For sure! I have no doubt of that! I have gotten the feeling that these people far outnumber the second type–

Then there are the other folks, that would be willing to pay a considerable privce– perhaps even MORE than they might spend on an auctioned ‘official’ windstone piece, to see their specific idea realized. Because it is THEIR idea and they want to see it brought to life by a professional. That’s the whole allure of commissioning an artist for many people. I don’t think we have a ton of these people that collect Windstones, but I think there are some.

5. What does you guys the most good as far as future reputation and job, or professional, security?

I am not entirely sure it matters. The world is changing, at least in terms of art careers. Rather than answer, I’d love to hear John/Melody’s insight as to why they think it would matter or not?

6. Why haven’t we all been able to retire to the Bahamas by now?

You are selling art!

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[Arlla]

I finally found it!! I don’t know why I couldn’t get in last night… so, HAI GUYS

Let’s see –
1. I’m with Jen in that I think there must be a balance on how many of these things we can sell and still keep the prices high. But if the stability of that balance depends even in part on the economy recovering, I think it’s tenuous at best. From what I’m hearing, I’m of the grim opinion that the economy will be in nasty shape for the next decade or so, and I think it will get worse before it gets any better.

I think something in our favor is that there are many different sculpts – there are some people who are only really crazy about griffins, and some that wouldn’t spend a penny on griffins but will drop a few thousand for some really good dragons. So spreading out the types of critters we paint to give, for example, the dragon people a chance to recharge will be important I think.

2. Time to paint – I need to get back into a stable schedule before I can really say, but from how it’s gone so far I think I can probably work 6 hours a day with a couple days off a week. If it turns out we can actually sell a lot of them and make good money, I think I could prioritize around that and make more time – we, like everyone else, could use the income. 😉 Now I have to figure out what that would translate to in number of pieces, which I’m still not sure how to do yet as I’ll get quicker the more familiar I become with the sculpts – my very hesitant guess would be, at 6 hours a day… maybe 1 big piece a week or maybe 4 little pieces a week….?

3. Whether there was time to paint commissioned PYOs I think depends on the answer to number 1 – if we’re selling enough of the special painted production pieces to keep us busy, there won’t be time. If however there are lulls in listing them, or if we find we need to sell fewer to keep the value high, I will have time to pursue other sources of income – the PYO commissions are the easiest and most enjoyable option for me. I really enjoy taking on PYO commissions, myself! 🙂 I’ve only had one relatively picky customer, and she was ultimately easy enough to satisfy. And now she’s one of my most devoted regulars.
On the other hand, after having watched my tiger family sell on ebay, I’m reconsidering my desire to do PYO commissions – even without the fluke of that sitting griffin chick, if they can keep selling like that, I’m certainly making more dollars per hour on the production pieces than the PYOs. The PYOs don’t take me much less time to paint than the big guys.
So I guess, right now, my only real concern is back to number 1 – how many can we sell?? If there are times when I need to work to make more than the Windstone auctions can provide, the commissions are a really nice and stable option for me.

— Though there are in fact plenty of other things I’ve been itching to try that have potential for bringing me income, and the only reason I haven’t really explored them is that I’ve been comfortable doing the PYOs. So actually, if they were no longer an option, I might find that something else does better for me anyway. Who knows! This is why I’m perfectly willing to go along with whatever you guys think is best.

I am, however, concerned about doing the PYOs on ebay… PYOs, even many of Jennifer’s, just don’t do all that well on ebay. Just from where I stand – getting a third of the selling price – has any special painted PYO gone for more than $550? I can’t remember. But they seem to hover around $350 – $500. I seem to remember a couple of Jen’s wolves going for a lot less – those auctions made me feel horrible! But if I can only expect $150 or so from the sale of a PYO dragon I’ve done special for Windstone, that’s considerably less than the $225 I get from one I’ve done on commission spending the same amount of time on.
I’m fine cutting out taking commissions, but the above being the case, I’m very wary of doing PYOs for Windstone’s ebay sales. I’m not sure how to get around that and still benefit from Ebay’s advertising value… I don’t think it’s a good idea to raise the minimum bid. And selling them as BIN might not work, and if it did I think it would kind of defeat the advertising purpose. There’s selling them in the store, which I think would work, but once again, no ebay advertising. :/

back to the questions…
4. I think Jen answered this pretty completely. Some would value it more as an official Windstone piece, and some would care more about their own particular commission realized!

5. …..job security?? XD I’ve never really considered it, myself. I’ve had it hammered into my my whole life that if I’m pursuing a career as an artist, I will never have any such thing as job security. So I’ve never really looked for it in this field. So, like Jen, I’m interested to hear what John and Melody have to say on potential job security. 😉

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[John]

Ok, I get a couple of things from this so far:

If we can keep the listing going at a reasonable rate on eBay neither of you probably will have much or any time for PYO commissions. So the taking of commissions may be a moot point. I think we are now at the point that we can keep the listing up.

If you did need to fill in for extra income and we sold your work (PYO’s) through Windstone, either on eBay or in the store, you would need to make as much on them as you would selling them direct. This may not be a problem if we wanted to make it a guarantee of so much per piece and we get the rest. Maybe you would get two thirds or so, and that would be OK for PYO’s with a different deal for the production pieces.

(We had, way back before PYO’s, discussed having a Windstone painting department that took commissions for specially painted cats and other pieces. I’m not sure we ever will but that may happen one day.)

Keeping the Windstone brand on your work as painted by a “Windstone painter” has value.

As long as there is more money in the production piece eBay auctions we all agree to focus on that I think. However, if the prices do fall because of the economy, there is no telling where commission painting prices would have to go to keep your sales up either. You might have to charge $150 instead of $225. That’s anybody’s guess.

The advertising value in eBay is a strong factor in wanting to develop sales there, but not overdoing it with custom pieces. Part of the value is the exposure and part is the high prices revaluing us upwards as a line. If done right I don’t see anything wrong with using the Buy It Now feature to get that value and exposure.

Another thought on eBay is that we want to try and cover as many catagories as possible, all the time. Cats, Owls, Wolves, Sconces, Candlelamps, Bedspreads, bottle openers, exercise equipment, horse shoes, french fries, nail clippers, once worn socks, It’s all good advertising. The more catagories the better, so we need to consider more than dragon and griffin painting in the eBay equation and the unpainted PYO’s that we sell probably don’t need painted piece sales in order to point to Windstone. we do need to go beyond what we currently sell and I don’t know if that will include you guys or not, but it will help keep new eyes arriving at our auctions and websites.

One thing that I am most concerened about is that we come to an agreement for the two of you that is fair and equal. Jennifer has had an arrangement that can’t be applied to anybody else because of her involvement in handling the forum, Cafe Press and other stuff so we need to get you both paid pretty much the same for painting and Jennifer paid whatever her time is really worth doing other stuff. Jennifer also was right there in the trenches getting the PYO product going, so you are both standing on slightly different ground. But, then, Helen just came up and got casting running. Right now Helen doesn’t really know how much time is going to go into each piece because she hasn’t done enough of them, and all the detail that Jennifer is putting into hers has got to add up to a lot of hours so I’m not sure how to sort it out. Your suggestions are welcome here. I still think that to keep you happy your income from painting shouldn’t fall below about twenty dollars per hour, but does that mean an average, or a floor, or what? At the end of the day you need to make somewhat more than you would doing another job elsewhere and we love to see you cream it in when that happens. And, for painting, neither of you making signifigantly more than the other.

Your further thoughts?

[Arlla]

Okie dokie – I’m fine cutting out the commissions and concentrating on production pieces. What should I do about people who are already in line for commissions right now? I’ve got about 6 I think… And there are a whole bunch waiting on tabby tiger griffins, but I told all of them that there would be no promises on me actually doing those anyway, so I think I could get away with just canceling those.

…I have to say I’m just not sure how to spread Windstone out of the high end collectibles and into other categories for exposure… I think things like Melody’s comic might be good for that. People who might not be attracted to or know about Windstone’s products might get into Reptangle, and then Windstones are almost like merchendise for the comic for those folks. Something else that might have potential are cheap little things like decals, or even stationary. Am I thinking along the right lines? Not sure where Jen and I might come into this though…

I too very much want whatever we work out to be fair!! I did not mean to cause ripples. I just wasn’t aware of any problems with me taking commissions until my official stuff was sold.
I’m glad I could help with casting, and I’m happy to hear that the girls are doing well on their own. If there’s anything else I can do for the company, I hope you let me know.

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[Arlla]

P.S. CONGRATS ON THAT GRIFFIN, JEN!!! 😀 WOW!!

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[Jennifer]

Thanks Helen!! I was very, very shocked! Especially since I was worried that the economy and collector base would cause sales to go down… male griffins always seem to be my best seller though! We will see what happens with the dragons I’m painting. 🙂

So, having read all this again, I am left scratching my head. Are there any problems? Should we just keep doing what we have been doing? So far it’s worked out okay, and if the stream of things being listed on eBay continues in a somewhat steady manner, I don’t know if I see any problems. Is anyone unhappy with the way any part of our agreement is working?

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[Arlla]

So long as you aren’t, I’m not! I’m just curious to see how things play out. I hope we can keep getting amazing prices like that! I think the only thing that still might concern me is how we do official PYOs in the future.

I guess the only thing I still need to know is the above – what do I do about my current commissions?? Do I finish up what I have left, or do I explain the situation to them and appologize? If I am allowed to finish the ones I’ve already taken on, I can spread them out inbetween official pieces.

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[John]

Arlla wrote:

So long as you aren’t, I’m not! I’m just curious to see how things play out. I hope we can keep getting amazing prices like that! I think the only thing that still might concern me is how we do official PYOs in the future.

I guess the only thing I still need to know is the above – what do I do about my current commissions?? Do I finish up what I have left, or do I explain the situation to them and appologize? If I am allowed to finish the ones I’ve already taken on, I can spread them out inbetween official pieces.

Do you really want to finish them?

[Arlla]

John wrote:

Arlla wrote:

So long as you aren’t, I’m not! I’m just curious to see how things play out. I hope we can keep getting amazing prices like that! I think the only thing that still might concern me is how we do official PYOs in the future.

I guess the only thing I still need to know is the above – what do I do about my current commissions?? Do I finish up what I have left, or do I explain the situation to them and appologize? If I am allowed to finish the ones I’ve already taken on, I can spread them out inbetween official pieces.

Do you really want to finish them?

Well… Yes! I’ve said I’d do something for these people and I’d like to follow through. …plus, I have a bunch of paid for unpainted PYOs for the purpose. The tiger people I don’t mind blowing off so much because I must have told them all about a hundred times that they just may never happen. But these other person commissions, yes, if I’m allowed, I’d like to finish them.

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[John]

Arlla wrote:

John wrote:

Arlla wrote:

So long as you aren’t, I’m not! I’m just curious to see how things play out. I hope we can keep getting amazing prices like that! I think the only thing that still might concern me is how we do official PYOs in the future.

I guess the only thing I still need to know is the above – what do I do about my current commissions?? Do I finish up what I have left, or do I explain the situation to them and appologize? If I am allowed to finish the ones I’ve already taken on, I can spread them out inbetween official pieces.

Do you really want to finish them?

Well… Yes! I’ve said I’d do something for these people and I’d like to follow through. …plus, I have a bunch of paid for unpainted PYOs for the purpose. The tiger people I don’t mind blowing off so much because I must have told them all about a hundred times that they just may never happen. But these other person commissions, yes, if I’m allowed, I’d like to finish them.
We can of course reemburse you for the unpainted stock if that should become an issue but, first, how many are we talking about that would need to be painted? I would agree about the Tiger ones, but my main concern I guess is that this turns out to be fair to Jennifer.

We just need to get a level of comfort that is fair to everybody and, if you think that this is too public a place, you may each want to discuss the situation privitely with us to make a case for, say, what you feel fair compensation for painting should be, and then we could offer up our thoughts for you to consider on this board. So far prices have been kind to us and it hasn’t been an issue, but you need a safety net and we need to share in any windfalls. Right now Helen has no guarantee as I remember it.

[Arlla]

I’ve got 6 unfinished commissions on my list. 2 of those are a bit more committed than the others because the people sent me PYOs of their own for me to paint, so if I said no to those I’d either have to buy the PYO off them or send it back and reimburse their shipping.

I know Jen is gone for the weekend, but I’m very open to hearing how she feels about it.

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[Jennifer]

Oh heck, I don’t mind! You took the commissions a while ago and they’re already paid for! If you wanna finish them, go for it! 🙂

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[Arlla]

Thanks, Jen – then unless you object, John, I’ll work on them in between official pieces… and when they’re done, that’ll be that.

I’ve had a lot of family issues since I’ve gotten back, and the tearing apart/relocation of my work space, but things are looking to settle down a bit at last and I’m going to do my best to work with a vengence from here on out – if you want to start on those snow leopard griffins, I should have the mother griffin done soon and on her way to you, hopefully with a few other things.

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

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