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What if you had a list of commissioners (the list made of people who WANT to be on the list), and people who have had good experiences with that commissioner can have their names put on a list of references that are considered good experiences. That way, a person interested in a commissioner on the list that has no names as references might be a little more cautious because they are likely either: very new, or the people who’ve commissioned before didn’t have that great an experience. Of course, it would behoove a commissioner to request references to put their names down on the list so they don’t look unreliable simply because a particular reference simply didn’t feel like putting their name on the list.
Just a thought.
ghostndragon wrote:What if you had a list of commissioners (the list made of people who WANT to be on the list), and people who have had good experiences with that commissioner can have their names put on a list of references that are considered good experiences. That way, a person interested in a commissioner on the list that has no names as references might be a little more cautious because they are likely either: very new, or the people who’ve commissioned before didn’t have that great an experience. Of course, it would behoove a commissioner to request references to put their names down on the list so they don’t look unreliable simply because a particular reference simply didn’t feel like putting their name on the list.
Just a thought.
In like that idea actualy. 🙂
And Wolfen, your comunications class sounds possitively fascinating! I find social interaction and comunication really interesting.
KoishiiKitty wrote:It does not mean that people can’t privately message some people on thier own and say,”have you had dealings with this person?” before doing biusness, and that way reputations are less likely to get blighted. I know I have done that when I have thought of purchasing, I contacted a few people who have proved reliable to me and asked if they had info and it really helped, but I also felt better that I was not passing bad info by privately inquiring too.
The only thing about this is that for new people like myself, we have no one to really private message to inquire about others. I could, I suppose, pick random names of people that I see post a lot and ask about someone, but that’s just a little strange and uncomfortable :nea:
I still like the idea of a forum that deals ONLY in positive comments. Someone doesn’t have to have negative comments against them for others to know that they’re not good to deal with (or at the very least, new, and possibly a risk) – the lack of their name on a list, I think, is a good enough warning.
I say all this knowing that I have no reputation whatsoever on the forums yet of course, so my name would be absent from that list too. I understand that a reputation is something that I have to work for, and if I did a bad job on my first few commission transactions then I would know that because I would receive no feedback whatsoever.
On the other hand, stuff happens with people who have good reputations too. It’s always possible that someone has a life shattering experience and they drop everything and move on without saying anything. It’s rare, but it happens. In those cases though, hopefully the bad experiences would be very very limited. This also doesn’t take into account people who have spotty records – some good and some bad feedback. People would never know if there wasn’t some sort of feedback on the bad experiences that they might be getting into gray areas.
Oh goodness, I’m running in circles now trying to think of a way to be fair to everyone. I remind myself of Gir in an Invader Zim episode when he thinks too much.. “Wait… if you destroy Dib in then past, then he won’t ever be your enemy. Then, you won’t have to send a robot back to destroy him. But, then he will be your enemy, so then you will have to send a robot back- *head explodes*”
On a side note.. Yay Koiishi!! You’ll have to let us know when you put something up 😀
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Please visit My Webpage to see my art and PYO's that I've done in the past!I’ll pipe up again…
I need bad experiences from at least 2 different members concerning the person before I add someone to the negative feedback list. I want to make SURE I have all sides of the story before adding someone, because I don’t want this to be impulsive statements; I take it very seriously. No finger pointing, no getting back at someone.
I did have a negative experience with someone, but the people I had been in touch with didn’t want to add that person to the negative list, so I didn’t.
And if someone is on that list and as far as people think, he/she shouldn’t be, whether it’s on the negative or the positive side, please let me know.
I find this list to be the simplest thing; no need to mod, since it’s an Excel sheet, and I act as a 3rd party in a way, to make sure things are fair.
No?
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http://www.sarahjestin.com/feedbacklists.htmThat does seem the simplest way, no nasty comments and what not. I have to ask though, do you have a slandered of how some one gets on that black list??? Like, does it take just one complaint?
Thinking about it, I am guessing since you request both sides of the story, you probably spend a lot of time looking over evidence provided to you before making adding a name.KoishiiKitty wrote:That does seem the simplest way, no nasty comments and what not. I have to ask though, do you have a slandered of how some one gets on that black list??? Like, does it take just one complaint?
Thinking about it, I am guessing since you request both sides of the story, you probably spend a lot of time looking over evidence provided to you before making adding a name.To be honest, so far, I haven’t had a single request for the negative list.
Before I add a name, I would ask the person if anyone else had issues and would contact these people. Like I said, at least 2 people have to have had problems, otherwise, it may be a personal thing. If the person is still active on the forum (pretty much everyone on the negative list are long gone), then I would contact that person too to find out and see if they want to address this before I add their name.
Read my books! Volume 1 and 2 of A Dragon Medley are available now.
http://www.sarahjestin.com/mybooks.htm
I host the feedback lists, which are maintained by drag0nfeathers.
http://www.sarahjestin.com/feedbacklists.htmmachineguts wrote:Jennifer wrote:Also as an aside, I know myself and many others will not take commission work where the client refuses to pay up front. A good compromise is a down payment to cover expenses on the artist’s part and as a good faith measure that the client intends to pay. From the other side of the coin, I cannot tell you how often I done work and had people not pay at the end. Since art is a livelihood for myself and many of my peers, this is just as harmful (even moreso, since the money lost in this case was needed for living costs) as having someone take your money and run. I encourage artists to have a clear cut “ToS” or terms of service/ terms of agreement / terms of commission / etc… clearly written out and agreed to by both parties so each knows what to expect. Down payments are a really good way to go.
Excellent Advice Jennifer. Like you and many others I’m a self employed artist and rely on my sales to take care of living expenses. Having been burned multiple times in the past I no longer take on commissions without a down payment. It can be a matter of eating dinner or not if a buyer skips out on you once you’ve completed their piece and they have suddenly “changed their mind” or went MIA altogether, when all that time you could have been working on a piece that was already secured with money down. I’m not pointing fingers at anyone here as I’ve never run into that on the forum, I’m just speaking in generalities. It’s sad and unfortunate, but some people just don’t realize that even though we artists are painting/illustrating/creating to earn money, it’s still just as important and respectable as working for a corporate establishment.
I wanted to add to my earlier comment that I am always open to negotiations when I already know I can trust the person/have done business with them before/etc. For instance if I know they will follow through but need to make payments I gladly accept them and have done business in this manner on numerous occasions. The times I do require a down payment are when I’m doing business with people I absolutely do not know/have never interacted with them before, such as when my parents have a friend that wants me to do artwork for them. It during occasions like these where I can get burned the most if I don’t watch it.
On one particular time I remember my dad’s friend contacting me about designing a magazine ad for them. This was before I had hardly any experience selling my work, so unfortunately I did not have a written ToS to back up the commission. I didn’t charge them any money until after my services were rendered, and sure enough they refused to pay unless I gave them a discount for knowing my dad. They said if I gave them a “big discount”, they would do business with me again. Being naive I agreed to it, sold my work for next to nothing, and of course I never heard from them again.
It’s extremely important for the buyer to be protected during a transaction, but it is equally as imperative that the seller is protected as well. Unfortunately things don’t always go smoothly. 🙁
Yeral, I totaly get the whole thing you said about being new 🙂 I know how I felt being here and being a new artist.
Yeral wrote:On the other hand, stuff happens with people who have good reputations too.
THAT. Absolutely, that is another factor. Stuff happens some times, legitimately, and especialy when it comes to art.
I purchased from an artist for instance, and they are a member here, sudenly it was hard to get hold of them, and a year went by just about. But they had a GOOD prior record, I kept track of where else she was online so I knew what was happening in there life and they were dealing with a LOT of things. I kept emailing but made sure it was kind, we got back in touch and had a good conversation, I got the items I had paid and waited for. She just had a fluke set of months is all. I still highly respect this artist and would buy from her again.This has happened to me too! Those that buy regularely from me can attest, I have forgoten to email some times, and some cases it takes me MONTHS to get something done, even though I try to get things out as fast as possible. Like this last 4 months we had visitors almost non stop, plus I had commissions and trades! Everything backed up and I would go weeks with out getting emails out.And yes, some were partialy paid for items. Thankfuly the people that hire me are uber awesome and give me a long leash.( I actualy have a few trades that I am behind on -_-)
There are other artists too, not on here, that I have hired and stuff happens and it can take a few week or months before I hear from them.
Just giving some more exmples for what could happen.
This is a really great conversation everyone. I will be gone a few days but you guys are welcome to brainstorm about what you think is the most fair way to handle this tricky situation (as long as it’s something we can do).
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My art: featherdust.comdragonmedley wrote:KoishiiKitty wrote:That does seem the simplest way, no nasty comments and what not. I have to ask though, do you have a slandered of how some one gets on that black list??? Like, does it take just one complaint?
Thinking about it, I am guessing since you request both sides of the story, you probably spend a lot of time looking over evidence provided to you before making adding a name.To be honest, so far, I haven’t had a single request for the negative list.
Before I add a name, I would ask the person if anyone else had issues and would contact these people. Like I said, at least 2 people have to have had problems, otherwise, it may be a personal thing. If the person is still active on the forum (pretty much everyone on the negative list are long gone), then I would contact that person too to find out and see if they want to address this before I add their name.
That is good, I think having 2 people is a good security to make sure it is not just a fluke, at least it greatly reduces accidental listing. It sounds like you really go through a lot of work to make sure it is a sure list.
Koishi brings up a good point – as do so many others – I mean there are flip sides to the coin on all this commission business. I totally agree with a downpayment. And I can’t believe a person would hire someone and then never pay, that’s just really stinky.
The main thing Koishi points out for ME is that even she has fallen behind, months behind, with work because of things going on so her comment makes me sit and wonder, is it me – am I too demanding or do I expect too much. I think I have the patience of a saint, really. I wait and wait to hear word and don’t complain until I FEEL like it’s just been too long – and then I simply write and ask whats up. At first, I got a reply within a week, or two. And Koishi, this is just my opinion LOL but, if I noticed you on the forum making board postings every day, and you didn’t reply to me within 7 days and I saw all your posts every day – just ‘chatting’ or whatever – I think I would be biting my fingernails and getting angry. I don’t know that you’ve done that, it’s a hypothetical remark and while not exactly what I’ve experienced with my problem, it could be similar.
I feel bad that I brought it up, in a way, altho it is a good discussion and one I should have started before choosing a commission. I have had someone else paint sculpts for me, and that artist kept in touch, sent updates, and did a remarkable job that I hired them again, and again (ok ok Kalandra if you MUST know lol and she’s awesome.) I feel a little bad that I sent the last email to my artist which simply said (in other words) ‘I am so done with this’ and also asking for my money back along with my PayPal addy Then I came here and posted my grievance, I wanted to know that how I am feeling is how I should be feeling – ripped off, neglected, waah waaaah. An otherwise GREAT artist has slacked off and fallen so far behind, that I feel like a person sitting on the other side of a computer monitor who doesn’t mean anything and isn’t important enough to get an email every so often, or update, or …………..
Poems wrote:And Koishi, this is just my opinion LOL but, if I noticed you on the forum making board postings every day, and you didn’t reply to me within 7 days and I saw all your posts every day – just ‘chatting’ or whatever – I think I would be biting my fingernails and getting angry. I don’t know that you’ve done that, it’s a hypothetical remark and while not exactly what I’ve experienced with my problem, it could be similar.
Maybe you mentioned this, but have you tried alternate or other outlets to try to reach this person (facebook, myspace, their friends on the forum?)? Not saying they are not getting your messages (especially if it’s been the same email addy all along), but it’s always a possibility.
For example, poor Susie was emailing me for a week without response, all the while I was posting on here. I wasn’t reading the messages because I didn’t know there was a problem with an order and wasn’t checking my Paypal email address. I probably looked like a jerk to her.
I kind of like the idea of a reference list. In most other fields of work, that’s what you provide, references to potential employers. And I don’t think a lack of references would immediately be a warning sign that the commissionee (that’s not a word, is it?) is shady. We all started somewhere and someone always had to be the first to give us a chance (ebay, jobs, etc.). For concerned commissioners, maybe that can lead a bit to negotiation between the new commissionee and themselves, like asking them to change some of their policies to help both feel a little more secure, like half down, or an initial deposit, instead of their full asking price up front. Or if a trade and model sent like in the original posters case, send the model first to be painted, but hold the trade item. That way the commissionee has motivation to follow through and if the commissioner cuts and runs, they aren’t out the price of the model and can hopefully recoup some of your losses selling the painted piece. Just possible examples. I’m thinking out loud =P It would be up to the parties involved.
I’m also not sure if the reference list has to replace the “black list” or “white list” (especially since its not just for commissions, but sales and trades as well). Maybe use the black list like a criminal background check. At one time I didn’t like the idea of it, as I worried there wasn’t enough distinguishing between factual and perception/emotional comments when making the decision if someone was flag worthy. If that makes sense. But I feel a little more confident in the hands its in now. I’m still hesitant about it, but I can see if members are getting royally screwed, there should be some way to document it. I’m not sure what the best solution is for that.
What if we started a thread of AWESOME experiences we have had with others on the forum? That way, when we get ready to deal with someone we can look to see if others have had a great experience and why. I have bought AND sold AND traded on here since I joined a year ago and I think those great experiences need a place to be mentioned. A moment of spotlight for the helpful and friendly people around here.
As for bad experiences, I’ve NEVER had one with anyone on the forum. I don’t have any ideas on how to make bad experiences known without causing problems :shrug:
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