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Thanks ddvm. I think you summed it all up nicely. The bottom line is that, for the most part, people are the problem, not dogs. People are responsible for animal cruelty, in-breeding, dog fighting, not being responsible pet owners, not researching the proper dog for their life-style, etc. I wish I thought things would change for the better soon, but unfortunately, I don’t. 🙁
There was a huge campain in our city a few years ago to propperly train and socialize your dog so that it did not get frightened and snap at strange people. We have Sam who was negelcted and abused for the first year and a half of his life and since he can be unpredictable around other people and dogs we are responsible pet parents and he does not get to go off leash (Yay extendo leashes) unless he is in our yard and supervised and all people who come over are told not to try and pet him until he initiates the contact (he’s especially bad with men since his first owner was a young male). We also don’t leave him tied up outside the store or coffee shop, just in case. We also keep him on a short leash and watch the body language if there are children around.
In an Ideal world, all people who get a dog should have to take special classes to teach them about the specifics of the breed they have.
Oh yeah, and poodles are not as sweet as people think, they were originally bred as hunting dogs (French I think) and it is only the froofy hair cuts that make people think they are sweet and innocent. They’ve got all the instincts of a regular hunting dog!
I think I agree with ddvm and in general with the folks that say the owner is responsible, not the breed. There are defining characteristics for every breed. Some may be naturally more aggressive than others, but a pitbull can be raised properly to a sweet dog and a poodle can be trained as a killer. Any dog could be a danger. The vast majority aren’t. Banning one breed will only make the show-offs and dealers turn to another, whether one in existance or a new mix.
There’s no way that any set of laws will completely eliminate aggressive dogs, deaths and injuries caused by dogs or improper training that turns them bad. And I say that banning something that’s generally good on the basis of one or two spectacularly bloody cases and foolhardy.
Phoenix said she’d like to see pitbulls controlled because drug dealers use them. I wonder what difference control would make? These guys are already on the wrong side of the law. They could get thrown in jail in a minute on a dozen different charges. Will they care what the law says about the dog at their heels? I don’t think so. Will making pitbulls illegal stop them from owning one? Maybe. I doubt it. I hardly they or the breeders they buy from register much or anything they own with the state, and illegality provides a certain extra value on anything. Greater risk, greater gain for the breeder…I think everyone has pretty much said it already but –
yes, when there is a dog attack, it very often gets labeled as PIT BULL ATTACK whether the dog is a Pit or not. And nobody cares or questions it because Pits have such a bad reputation.
The average pit owner isn’t the “average” pet owner we think of. Pits are very very often owned by people who fight dogs and people who want a “mean” dog. You could make a standard poodle or lab just as nasty if it were subjected to what many pits are subjected to.
After getting my first dog, my tiny 4 pound chihuahua, I have become extremely skeptical of breed stereotypes. Every bit of literature I read in my research of my chosen breed said to keep Chihuahuas away from children, and that they were very often fear biters.
My dog’s favorite people in the world are children, she greets everyone submissively and happily with her tail wagging a mile a minute (including dogs about a hundred times her size) and she’s never even THOUGHT about biting anyone.
I socialized her thuroughly as a puppy and I have firmly asserted myself as the alpha dog in our pack. She may be atypical for her breed, but I believe that how she has been raised is the reason for that. There are so, SO many people who keep dogs who don’t know how to deal with them…and if they happen to have a big dog that is able to cause serious injury, that is a perfect recipe for trouble."He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R TolkienI had to skim responses, but im getting lost of good info. There are no statistics on the ratio of dogs owned compared to numbers of attacks. My stairwell itself has 75% rottweilers. (I have 2, neighbor has one, and there is one beagle) Statistically, if someone is bitten, chances are it will be by a Rott. The news shows pics of Pitbulls biting, and the pics are not even pit bulls. It is ridiculous. One paper just pulled the pic of the dog and still ran the story as a pit bull attack. I am about to get a book on the truth behind the statistics. I cant remember the name, but its from the same lady that wrote The Pit bull Placebo. It looks like its gonna be good. I cant remember who wrote it… Phoenix? But I would not trust my child around someone elses pit, or a pit that I adopted, but I have no problem getting one and raising it myself. Oh, another story reported a pit attack. Said it was a family dog, had been raised by the family its whole life, blah blah blah… turned out it was the boyfriends (Who was in prison) dog and they were the 3rd owners or something. There were so many good stories. I will ger back to ya’ll later! I have to get going. Oh, the thread with the spot a pit bull… if you search community threads for Pit bull.. its the second option on the 2nd or third page. There is a cool link there!
I just gotta add my 2 cents. I haven’t had alot of experience w/ dogs. I do have a golden retriever(I trust her totally, alone, w/ my kids). I also watch alot of Ceasar Milan. The man is amazing. I have learned alot of the ‘problem’ cases are just owner miss managment. People want these large dogs and do not know how to handle them. A lot of these breeds were bred to have a job, working dogs. Mastiffs are by nature guard dogs, pits fought bulls(really two breeds here, American Staffordshire Terriers & Staffordshire Terriers), bla bla bla. Now we get these dogs couped up in the house all day w/ no outlet for thier energy and they express aggression. Don’t even get me started on little dogs!! People think it’s cute when they display protective or aggressive behavoir and really it’s no diferent then a large dog, they just don’t do as much damage. My golden was attatcked by a little pomeranian, thank goodness the dog didn’t jump on my brother in law’s doberman.
And the statement about Golden’s being the next nasty breed, I think that is just because of thier popularity. They can also tend toward the dominant side, so it’s important they know(or any dog for that matter) where they stand in the ‘pack’.
I would love to own a protective dog! I live in the country, way up on a hill and it makes me nervous sometimes to be alone w/ my kids all the time. Not just because we could be vulnerable to burglars, but animals too. We have coyotes, bears, even bobcats here, plus my neighbor never leashes his german shepard. But I don’t own one of these dogs, because I don’t know if I could handle it the proper way. But, I’m a resposible pet owner.
I do agree, there MUST be harder laws for animal abuse. It’s really a catch 22 and in the end the animals suffer for it. I just don’t understand what goes thru people heads. My dog was a stray in LA before she came into the rescue I got her from. Someone shot her with a BB gun! She is the sweetest gentlest soul and someone was cruel to her! I just don’t get people!
*climbs off soap box*
I am yet another “ban deed not breed” person 😀 obviously… *pokes website* http://www.liquinet.com/wolfdogadoption/
Besides all the reasons already listed as to why pits are often in stats.. There are just a lot more pits than other dogs! They did a survey a while back and consistently found higher numbers of pits in shelters in urban areas than any other breed. At least, in the places they checked.
The pit is the most registered dog in.. ok, shoot, I don’t remember the name! Anyway, it is a big registry place, and has something like twice as many pits registered as the MOST registered breed that the AKC has! That is a LOT of pit bulls!Ever wonder how many breeds are considered pitbulls?
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
It is estimated that 40% of the dogs in the US are pits and pit mixes, there is a huge reson that many bites are by them. I feel that dangerous dog legislation works way better than breed baning. Take a look at the breeds Italy has baned and restricted http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/Locations/Italy/Italy.htm
that is sad, Shelties and Corgies are on this list, this is why breed banning does not work.FYI I have beed bit by Labs, 3 of them, the all american best dog breed, breeding does play a part, but ownership is a huge this as well.
I just checked out the list from Italy. Good lord, I can’t beleive they didn’t ban the sheep that these dogs protect too!! A Newfoundland??!! They are rescue dogs for goodness sake! 🙄
It really does come down to how the dog is raised (you’ve just got to socialize a puppy!) and being able to read canine body language/understanding canine social structure. I work with a lot of dogs. The biters are in three groups: first and largest, the spoiled or untrained dogs who bite in order to show dominance over the human. (The dog believes that they’re the alpha.) Second group, thankfully smaller, would be the fear/stress biters. (Unsocialized, most of these; a few are just highly spooky dogs by nature, or dogs pushed beyond their tolerance by pain.) Third and smallest group, the genuinely human-aggressive dogs, who see humans as modified prey items. This last is the fear behind all the media noise. It’s also an unacceptable thing.
This is going to sound egotistical and humanocentric, but dogs were bred to be companions, assistants . . . and tools . . . of humans. The first two categories are fine. The third one gets hazy because it depends on how the tool is being used. It’s wonderful to develop a breed that will guard your flocks, fetch your shot duck, clear out the rats in the barn, be a lifeguard for the kids. It’s inexcusable to develop a dog–I don’t say a breed–for the purpose of being a weapon against people in general or some kind of ain’t-I-tough symbol.
Like it or not, humans are social creatures. We all need to get along. Keeping a dog that is an active threat to other people is No Good. Banning a breed won’t do any good. We need a way of getting to the unspeakable idiots who create the truly dangerous dogs. (I have some ideas, mostly involving a blunt spoon. 👿 )
There’s a complicating factor in that there’s a real language barrier between humans and dogs. We don’t fully understand their body language, and this is where a lot of fear bites come from. The dog is saying one thing. The human misinterprets what is being said and does something that frightens, confuses, or angers the dog. This happens enough, and a human will get bitten. Humans and dogs get along properly when there’s enough mutual comprehension.
There are rogue dogs, just like there are psychopathic humans. But how do you tell the rare rogue from the hundreds of unsocialized fear biters or spoiled dogs? How do you tell a human psychopath from the merely unsocial or the perpetually crabby? It’s very hard. They may pop up more often in certain family lines, but unless an entire breed should happen to come from an extremely small and nasty gene pool, rogues are not going to be decided by breed either.
I’m really glad to see so many people agreeing that a dog’s breed is not the problem. I think the consensus is that it’s the human elements in the equation that decide how things turn out. Humans need to behave responsibly.
Thanks for everyone’s patience. 😳 This was a hot button for me too.
Barrdwing I think you and I will get along really well, what do you think of pet shops selling dogs and puppy mills?
tc_cat333 wrote:On a different point, I believe that female Rottweiler go crazy after the age of 2 or something if they haven’t had a litter of puppies or been spaded… something about their brain keeps growing and starts to push against the skull to the point that the go crazy and die… you might want to check on that though… It happened to my aunts dog..
Sorry, this is not true. Dogs brains dont continue to swell and they dont go crazy if they dont have pups. A Rotts brain is no different from any other dogs. I think your aunts dog was just an isolated incident. Probably a disease. Sorry.
Phoenix wrote:I don’t believe in banning a breed, but I do believe people who breed “vicious” breeds should have to have a license.
Good point, but I think anyone who breeds any dog should have some kind of license. There are too many back yard breeders who breed just for money and not to improve a breed. 🙁
Phoenix wrote:the jaws have more power than other breeds. The locking jaw thing is a myth, but pitbull have the determination and strengh to keep hold even while beating it on the head and body. Other breeds just don’t do this.
The locking jaw is a myth, and thanks for bringing that up 🙂 , but according to National Geographic, the dog with the strongest bite was the Rottweiler, followed by the German Sheppard, then the Pit. I saw it on a show not that long ago. Thought it was interesting, cuz I always though pits would have the strongest bite, too. If anyone in curious, the animal with the strongest bite on Earth is the Crocodile 🙂
Phoenix wrote:I love pitbulls. I think by far, they are one of the most beautiful breeds out there. Would I ever have one for a pet? Not a chance. I have two little kids and it’s not worth even the slightest chance of an attack. The power of these dogs and the single-mindedness when they do attack is not comparable to a poodle.
My man wants one, but with a kid, I am skeptical, too. Lots were bred for the wrong reasons… it is hard to get past generations of improper breeding. Herding dogs herd, hunting dogs will hunt, and fighting dogs will fight. Its sad. If I do get one (Its my mans favorite breed) I would have to do some extensive investigating on the breeder. My man was looking at pits yesterday (on line) and was enthralled, talking about how great they were. I told him to clink on the “fcilities” link. The place was trashy. 🙄 Dogs kept in little cages surrounded by junked cars and trash. I told him no way!
I thought the hyena had the strongest jaws?
Either way, I don’t put much faith in dog bite tests. They have a special tool to measure jaw strength. Basically, they just make the dog bite the tool, and they get a number. This is very flawed. A dog will bite with different strengths depending on its mood, the situation, and even based on individual genetics. It would be similar to saying that people from Iceland have stronger jaw strength than people from India. It’s nearly impossible to test for, and even harder to make a blanket statement on.
ruffian wrote:Barrdwing I think you and I will get along really well, what do you think of pet shops selling dogs and puppy mills?
Puppy mills: SNARL! 👿 A dog is a living thing, not a commodity to mass-produce. When it starts coming to “How many pups can we get out of this one before she’s all used up?” I just want to wade in with a big stick with a nail in it. Major hot button. I’ll stop now.
Pet shops selling dogs (heck, pet shops selling anything!): depends entirely on how discerning they are regarding who they sell to, and their buyer education program, and the conditions the animals are kept in, and their veterinary care program in-shop, and whether they take the trouble to screen their suppliers. In other words, are the pet shops taking care for the well-being of their “living merchandise”, or are they just out to make money by whatever means available?
Case in point. Early this year, it came to light that some pet shops in Southern California were buying dogs from suppliers in Mexico; in particular, a certain valley in Mexico. Guess what. There is no rabies vaccination enforcement in Mexico. Guess what disease was endemic in that valley. Can you imagine buying a puppy from a pet shop and having it go rabid in a few weeks? And the reason the pet shops were buying from Mexico was, you guessed it, because the pups were even cheaper there. Needless to say the US authorities cracked down on those shops good and hard. But when profit margin becomes more important than anything else, things go to hell. And the thought of having some poor dogs–or any other living thing, for that matter–caught in the middle is enough to get me frothing mad myself.
Phoo. Another major hot button.
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