Artwork Concerns

[Jennifer]

Hi everyone! John asked me to make a new topic, and here I am…

These are email conversations I have been having with John pasted here so we can continue as a group.

Quote:

It seems that there is some sort of gross misunderstanding on the forum in the art section, and I will admit that I myself didn’t realize it was a problem to occasionally promote one’s work there! So I wanted to apologize on my behalf for not only posting an occasional promotion of my non-Windstone art (such as my personal art books) but also for not in policing this matter. At this point I think that I need to make a statement… either we need to be strict and have a ‘no advertisement/promotion’ policy, or allow it to an extent. e.g. no competitive selling.. but then you need to be able to define what types of art would be in competition with Windstone. Either way while I agree a firm stance is necessary, it might be within reason to apologize for not being clear with this earlier, as I genuinely do understand some of the forum member’s confusion. While I don’t share their ‘hurt’ sentiment, I can understand why they might feel that way. I know it’s a delicate balance for you guy sometimes to protect yourselves legally while trying to keep collectors happy (and buying) and I’d like to help if I can.

Just as a side note, we should consider making some sort of statement or comment on that situation soon— the longer people speculate, the easier it is for them to make up stories about Windstone being a ‘big bad corporation that only wants to step on the little guys’ which has happened in the past and gotten pretty ugly. You need to make it clear somehow, politely, that the reason you are SO protective of your work is because you AREN’T a big corporation.. you’re a small family run place and if you don’t stick up for yourselves no one will, and you’ll be out of business. Then no one will be happy!

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[Jennifer]

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[John]

First, you, Helen, Amber, Chessie, etc. are Windstone related artists as far as I am concerned (maybe less so in Amber’s case) and I see nothing wrong with promoting anything you do as long as it isn’t creating your own line of sculpture. That was the whole intent of getting you involved. To try to get your name out there in a positive way that would help your career. Whatever you guys do in the way of art comes back to Windstone in enthusiasm to collect your Windstone pieces. What these artists like Keeperoftheflocks and Purplecat are doing is to try and build businesses on the back of Windstone and get a free ticket to sales. That’s just not right and I think that most people would never have the nerve to go there.

I think Melody is making a huge mistake in interacting with Purplecat and not just sending her a lawsuit. I think a whole lot of entitlement issues and manipulation is being passed off as misunderstanding.

We do need to define a policy and I would think that the line for posting artwork would simply be that no commercial artwork posting is allowed. We could create a separate site for non-sculpture commercial work such as graphic novels, drawings, and paintings but even that can be hard to retract if we should start publishing stuff again, so it’s probably a bad idea. Maybe one of a kinds only?

Jennifer why don’t you go ahead and post something to the effect of what you said about your size and need to be somewhat protective. Not that Disney would put up with anything of the sort either.

[Jennifer]

I think a fair rule would be to simply disallow the commercial sale of artworks here; things that are one of a kind (such as originals) are okay… things that are made in quantity such as prints, sculpture casts, etc etc are NOT okay. And that the terminology, descriptions and artwork itself may not infringe upon Windstone’s Trademark, Trade Dress, or Copyright.

Perhaps John can write a short blurb, that I could post with the rules, about WHAT trademark and trade dress means for Windstone. I get the feeling that is poorly understood by the members here and might be causing some confusion in of itself!

Ideally, that should help promote creativity and originality!

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[Pam]

Jennifer wrote:

things that are one of a kind (such as originals) are okay… things that are not made in quantity such as prints, sculpture casts, etc etc are NOT okay

Wait, huh? OOAKs are ok, things not made in quantity are not? If something isn’t made in quantity, isn’t it an OOAK?

[John]

Pam Thompson wrote:

Jennifer wrote:

things that are one of a kind (such as originals) are okay… things that are not made in quantity such as prints, sculpture casts, etc etc are NOT okay

Wait, huh? OOAKs are ok, things not made in quantity are not? If something isn’t made in quantity, isn’t it an OOAK?
Pam- That has got to be a typo. I will edit it.

[Jennifer]

It was a typo, thank you John.

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[John]

Here is a quote from the forum and my response to consider.

Quote:

can you define what you mean by Sharing artwork?

for instance, how i see the word, If I share something, I do not make any money on it what so ever. It is posted to “share”, so people can share in seeing it, or I may give it as a gift..to share with some one…but no money is exchanged for it.

But the way you word your sentence gives me the impression that personal pieces of art as individual being sold( for example, I paint a water color, I sell the water color…but I do not sell copies of it)may be considered ok, as apposed to selling “production” of an art piece.

it sounds slightly confusing.

I don’t know either. We (the staff) are debating this and whether a senseable line can be drawn that won’t get abused or misinturprited. Sharing one of a kind artwork with forum members (and whoever else views the forum) certainly means letting them view it but if we say it’s OK to sell off the site then are we going to leave the door open a little wider for members to create links to comercial sites that will, one day, start the problem all over again? Maybe we should just set up a gallery for the sale of original art and really keep a lid on any attempts to use it or the forum for comercial gain. And by that I mean real businesses with websites or stores. ???

[Arlla]

This is such a sticky subject. And there’s always a lot of high emotion flying around whenever it gets drug up.

This sort of thing has boiled up several times on the forum now, and each time it seems to make people angry and drive them away. There has been the issue of painting PYOs with the gold detailing, the issue of airbrushing the PYOs and having them look ‘too much like production pieces,’ the issue of repaints, and now what people see as Windstone picking on a couple of individuals suddenly after allowing what they’re being ‘punished’ for go on for so long.

I can absolutely see both sides on this issue. I absolutely understand that Windstone needs to protect itself, and not really from these small time artists trying to kick off and get their start, but from big guys that might cause trouble later – because you can’t allow a precedent to be set. I understand this. But looking at it from the forum member’s point of view, Windstone is starting to look pretty ungracious. These people aren’t trying to undermine the company. They’re small time artists who have been inspired by Melody and who are trying to make their own dreams of making a living off of their art realized. They aren’t trying to compete, but they’ve gathered here at the forum with like minds and found their customer base, because lets face it – what kind of artists and fans alike are you going to attract here? Mostly fantasy.

While this has natural potential for competativeness, I think the way this is being handled – or at least the way it’s handling is being perceived – is a lot more hurtful to Windstone than it is helpful. You’ve created a community, and what’s going on now is creating a lot of dissent and misunderstanding. Windstone isn’t being seen as an encouraging force for artists and art, it’s being seen as a bully overly protective of things that most of these people just don’t see as Windstone having valid claim on.

I’m not saying that Windstone shouldn’t protect what it’s fought so long and hard to keep. But I think we need to put some quick and serious work into making the forum seem like a more welcoming and encouraging place, for artists and art fans alike. The general art forum is one of the gems of this community – people have come to see it as a place where creativity is nutured – I think the encouragment Melody has displayed to budding artists on the forum has endeared the company to a lot of people, and they’re seeing this as a confusing contradiction.

These artists aren’t big companies. Slapping them with a lawsuit, in my opinion, is harsh and unnecessary. Though I agree that Melody’s relationship with Purplecat has allowed the particular problems with her to escalate far beyond what they should have been. I think problems and people like this need something inbetween John and Melody – a balance between just letting them keep it up and threatening a lawsuit.

For the forum, I think it might be helpful if the actual individual problems that you’ve had with Purple cat and Keeproftheflocks are explained, with specific examples of what they’ve done that isn’t alright. Because a lot of people weren’t even aware there was any problem, and without any explanation of what’s happened, they just see artists leaving the forum and threads being removed for reasons not clearly explained.
And as Jen says, if there are things that you want forbidden on the forum, rules need to be written up quickly and clearly and posted and pointed out.

I think if you are going to allow solicitation and sale of any artwork (or anything else) on the forum, it should be all or nothing. I think getting into whether it’s OOAK or semi-mass produced is just going to cause more anger and confusion, even if the boundaries seem clear to you. My own opinion is that selling / advertising shouldn’t be allowed at all, but that artists should be in no way discouraged to show examples of their own art – as Jen said in one of the threads, if there is interest in buying what they share, the artist can continue that dialogue with the interested party in PMs or on their own site.

I think there is A LOT of confusion about what is too close to a Windstone and what is not. And I honestly have to agree with most of them in that some of what is called ‘too close’ seems absolutely ridiculous. Especially combined with things I’ve pointed out to John that I’ve found on ebay – like one particular knock off gargoyle that was almost a straight copy of the roaring sentinal – that were ignored because it wasn’t worth going after. Those are direct ripoffs being sold en mass on ebay – those aren’t worth pursuing, but a few small time artists trying to get themselves going, who are openly in love with Melody and the Windstone company, who keep the community excited with their own works and possibly draw new people in – those people are worth going after when it does nothing much but anger your own fan base??

So I understand both sides, but I think we need to tread carefully here. What are we losing and what are we gaining with this?

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[Jennifer]

I’ve been thinking this over all afternoon and evening as I made dinner and I am thinking that I agree with Helen on most points.

At first I thought it was just a case of Purplecat and her friend (koishii) getting in a huff because they’ve had some problems with you guys. That is one issue I will concede on– Purplecat is a very sweet girl but she’s either really stubborn or really clueless; you can lead a horse to water and all that. Been trying to help guide her away from Windstone’s look for some time and have put many personal hours into tutoring her a bit to learn animal anatomy and.. well that is a tangent for another time! Point being, is that purplecat is a diffent story altogether, I think.

But seeing the other forum members step forward made me realize, hey yeah we’ve got not just one or two folks that are acting hurt, but a group of people that are uncomfortable to downright upset with how things are.

I will admit that this issue confused me from the get-go… I was under the impression that the thread was pulled because of the trademark infringing terminology. I didn’t even think twice about the fact that she was selling her artwork– so when John edited my post I was taken back. I don’t mind– after all, the company is John and Melody’s. But I was confused and ‘fighting’ the wrong point for a while…I thought this was an issue of trademark, and only later realized that it was about selling artwork, and the forum members felt blindsided by this new rule. I will politely agree– I was a bit blindsided too… though I knew the forum’s purpose was not to promote other people’s work… I didn’t know it was a problem to do so. Really, the best solution would have been to create and post a firm rule FIRST, and give everyone a chance to remove any posts that were overly commercial in nature… then after a grace period, police it. As it stands, it “seems” to the other members that Windstone is being very unfair with who they ‘punish’ and who they don’t. Seeing both sides, I know it isn’t really the case… but I truly can see why the forum members feel this way.

Being an individual artist is hard, just as being a small company in the USA selling collectibles is hard sometimes. I am very strongly for protecting Windstone’s right, but I am also trying to see things from the forum member’s sides and it doesn’t look very good right now. What Helen said is true… you’ve got a strong community here and like it or not, the way it is handled can have strong repercussions. This is a private site and you do have every right to do as you please, but be aware it might increasingly effect the number of collectors you have. Yes, some members do have entitlement issues. Yes, that sucks! But at the same time, you have to balance being firm and protecting yourselves with the dance of tact and care. It’s probably a lot like trying to be the parents of 500 children.. some good, some not so good… but you need to be able to let them play in the sandbox together without getting in trouble, and when one does you have to find a way to discipline without making them cry. That’s a bad analogy but it’s the best I could think of! I’m tired.

I know in the past alienating one fan or collector here and there has probably not had many problems. But now we’re in the age of social online networking– and people TALK. About everything! And they don’t need to slander Windstone to turn new collectors (and old ones) off of your product. I have already seen it happening in blogs– I know this purplecat business getting as far as it has HAS lost you some collectors that follow her online. And she didn’t say a single nasty word about Windstone. Word of mouth, as the internet becomes more and more social networking… can have a great impact on sales. I know it has had, on my personal (non windstone) art. Something to bear in mind!

So, right now I think it’s best to get your rules together, and be firm about them one way or the other. Heck, some of this is my fault because I thought that one set of problems was the main problem when, based on what John is posting, it was only a minor problem and the real problem (selling art) was the main one and I was blind to it.

We have had problem in the past on the forum, and given time yes the storm always blows over and things are well again. However, the general topic of where Windstone Stands in terms of protecting itself is kinda hazy, and it’s going to keep causing problems now and then. Is there a solution? I have no idea… that is up to the people that run the company to decide. There is risk in posting steadfast rules, legally, I know. There is a lot of risk in not doing so, as well. I cannot decide this.

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[John]

Thanks to the both of you for getting this deep into the discussion and giving it so much thought. When Jennifer sent me the thread and said we may have a problem here I looked at it and she was obviously using the forum to solicit sales of her castings both painted and unpainted, calling them Paint Your Own and PYO’s and with magic paint I thought, OK, there may be a trademark issue here as we have been using those terms to market Winstone for quite some time and the public has come to associate them with our products. Those terms were of course used by Keeperoftheflocks because she wanted to leverage our usage into a tool to sell her casts. So I told her that first, the Windstone forum was never intended to become a marketplace for other commercial products un-related to Windstone and also that there was probably a trademark issue in the use of her terminology, particularly PYO and Magic Paint. And that I strongly recommended that she remove any Windstone derived (I don’t remember my exact words) that could be a problem from her website.

I did express the idea of a trademark issue with Jennifer but, in my mind, the primary thing is the misuse of the forum. Why should anybody go nova because they are edited out of a forum where they are a guest and be mad about it and not embarrassed?

You know, there are only a couple of these people who are a problem and boy do they react! The Purplecat person is a serious issue and the way I have come to read it is she is simply manipulating Melody into a position that we will all regret. But she does seem to have a fan base that jump right on board. I have not been following her posts and have not looked at her website so I don’t know the extent of Purplecat’s selling on line or the forum lately. Melody says that she asked her to remove what she was selling on the forum and she did so. But I also sense from her posts on this thread that she is not happy about it. I wasn’t really serious about sending her a lawsuit Helen. But I don’t think that playing her game is productive either.

The Keeper person, on the other hand, has a pretty extensive commercial website (maybe Purplecat does too, I don’t remember) and really ought to understand that it is pretty disrespectful of that artist and her company that she says she idolizes to post what she did. The usual suspects were there in a heartbeat to stir thing up of course. So are they just clueless? Or what? I don’t know. But I do know that every time these things happen there seems to be no explaining anything to any of them as they refuse to listen and then distort the replies and postings. And you guys are completely right. I should know better by now.

So what now? TwoHuberts just called while I was in the middle of this to put in her two cents and offer to help moderate the forum. What do you think? Could she be of use as a moderator? A moderator who is no staff could be a very good thing I would guess and she knows a lot of these people and yet seems to come off as pretty neutral on the forum. I asked her to email the three of us with her thoughts about the hubbub.

I don’t really see the need to ban all sales including original artwork. I would vote for just commercial work that is offered for sale on a website, or in a store or gallery. That’s a pretty understandable definition. I can also see banning all sales but then do you keep them from saying “I intend to sell these” or what?

I need to go feed the troops and will try to address this some more tomorrow when my head clears. well, maybe whether or not my head clears is more correct.

[Arlla]

Jen will probably know more than me about 2Huberts, but haven’t they also been involved in certain squalls here on the forum? I can’t say I know much about them. Does this person have any experience moderating? Are they diplomatic when it comes to discussion on the forum?

I have to ask, John – what claim does Windstone actually have on the term “Paint Your Own?” Because you can do a google search on that phrase and get a whole lot of hits for paint your own pottery, paint your own guitars, etc. Have you actually filed for any kind of copyright or trademark on that phrase? Because it’s laying claim to things like that that’s going to help get people angry. Yes, your line of PYOs is associating the term with the company, but there have been paint your own sculptures loooong before Windstone’s. There was a store near my college that did a lot of paint your own bisque sculptures – and yes, they called them that. I think it’s pretty common, isn’t it?
Now, is it rude try and sell your own semi-mass produced sculptures on a sculpture company’s forum? Maybe. Is it rude to do that AND use terms that that company has been using? Probably. But at that point, do you legally have a right to say that they are your terms and no one elses? (I’m genuinely asking because I don’t know.) Keeproftheflocks may have commited a faux pas in selling her things on the forum, especially using those terms, but I really REALLY don’t think she would have done it if she thought it wasn’t allowed.

Quote:

Those terms were of course used by Keeperoftheflocks because she wanted to leverage our usage into a tool to sell her casts.

…While this may be true, in a way, I think you may be giving it a slightly more malicious slant than it actually has in reality. She sees a forum full of people crazy about Windstone’s paint your owns. She sees other paint your own ceramics/resins/sculptures out on the market. She sees multiple precedents on the forum for people selling their own sculptures, some of which I believe were also sold unpainted for people to paint. She has sculptures that she knows this fan base would probably be into and doesn’t see any one else getting reprimanded for advertising their stuff…. Honestly, John, try to take off the business glasses for just a second and look at it from her point of view – or at least from the point of view of the bystanders. Windstone does not look very much like the good guy here.

Quote:

The usual suspects were there in a heartbeat to stir thing up of course. So are they just clueless? Or what? I don’t know.

I think there are a lot more people upset here than ‘the usual suspects,’ though I know who you’re talking about. I think most people don’t want to get involved for fear of stepping on toes. But Koishikitty and Drag0nfeathers and the other noisy ones certainly represent the opinions of a great many other quieter people on the boards. I don’t think they’re clueless, I think they’ve been given mixed signals about what is appropriate and what is not. I should probably go back and reread the threads, but have there been any comments in favor of Windstone’s stance in this…? What I got from it was a lot of people saying that they understood but disagreed, or were nervous about being the next person to be accused of copyright infringement, or didn’t understand the intricacies of trade dress/copyright/etc. at all. As far as misuse of the forum — no, they aren’t being clueless. No rules against this were ever posted. Selling has been going on for a long long time. This course of action was straight out of the blue for a lot of people, and no they aren’t going to understand, especially since the reasons for it haven’t been publicly explained very well.

Obviously it’s pressing that the rules get figured out – and I like Jen leave that to the owners of the company – and that they get posted loudly and clearly so that futre misunderstandings don’t occur. But just as pressing at the moment, I think, is repairing the rift that’s being created between the company and this community of fans that’s developing because of this. You know how important the internet community is to this company – you know how important the forum has been to keeping the company alive. I think we need to do a little quick footwork here to try and make people feel a bit more welcome.

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[Jennifer]

Helen, I just wanted to mention that keeperoftheflocks used not only “PYO” but also “Magic Invisible Paint” (when displaying images of the same holographic flake paint as Windstone uses). Maybe it was both terms, when combined with production made sculpture, that was a problem? I am not fully sure how that sort of thing works, legally.

What is a commercial website? One where selling a product (or, in this case, art) is a major part? Then yes, keeperoftheflocks, purplecat, and myself have commercial websites. Mine offers other content too, from galleries to tutorials… but I hope to make sales though my website. That’s something to consider– what is your definition of commercial? What is and is not?

I know 2huberts a bit- Laurie is her real name. She’s been nothing but a sweetheart to me, but I think she has been involved in a few spats. I can’t remember and I’ll have to dig to see! So, I will say this:

I do not mind if Windstone appoints more/new mods. Not at all.
Just remember though that in a way they do represent you as a company. (I’m sure you know this all too well!) I have always always tried to keep that in mind regarding my actions here. I hope that I’ve not disappointed! But if you select new mods, choose with care!

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[Arlla]

Jennifer wrote:

Helen, I just wanted to mention that keeperoftheflocks used not only “PYO” but also “Magic Invisible Paint” (when displaying images of the same holographic flake paint as Windstone uses). Maybe it was both terms, when combined with production made sculpture, that was a problem? I am not fully sure how that sort of thing works, legally.

Yeah, the magic paint thing was definitely more into the realm of rude, since I’ve never heard that anywhere but Windstone auctions. But had anyone told her that it was actually really inappropriate to use that term? Does Windstone actually carry the copyright on it?

Jennifer wrote:

I do not mind if Windstone appoints more/new mods. Not at all.
Just remember though that in a way they do represent you as a company. (I’m sure you know this all too well!) I have always always tried to keep that in mind regarding my actions here. I hope that I’ve not disappointed! But if you select new mods, choose with care!

You’re the most amazing mod I’ve ever seen on any forum – I don’t know how you catch all the stuff that you do. And I don’t know how you keep your cool in some of those battles that you have to break up! 😉 Not sure any other mod would live up… but it might be nice to have extra help. But I agree, whoever you pick as a mod is going to end up sort of being one of the more visible representatives of the company, so don’t pick them lightly.

"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom."
-J R R Tolkien

[John]

I will second Helen’s opinion of Jennifer! You guys are both rare individuals and I really do feel responsible for dragging you into this.

Maybe, however it is a good time to try and get some communication across about all this. Yes we should probably have had a real set of rules and regulations but then they do sort of work through these things on their own and some of the posts have started to make some sense. I should have done a Paint Your Own search before responding to her as I had no idea that it was in wide use. That was really stupid. But what I was saying was there could be a Trademark issue in her use of terminology that was taken from us and that is true. Trademark rights are perfected by use so I can’t give you a definite answer about the strength of a claim but PYO and Magic Invisible Paint have been used in association with Windstone for some time. When there is a representation that is taken from someone to sell another’s product in that way it is probably, when push comes to shove, illegal. Not as straightforward as copyright but there are certainly claims of unfair competition that one would make. I think it went way beyond rude. That said I probably should have someone else deal with it because, I have to admit, some of these people do piss me off when they do things as blatant as that. Really, I’m very sorry about this.

I think we can turn this into a much needed discussion and get it worked out so they aren’t afraid to post their art.

I don’t know about Laurie either. ???

[Author]

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