Anyone know anything about fish?

[KaytanaPhoenix]

Then what were the other two I had? They stayed the same small size while this one outgrew them quickly! ‘n yes, I know she would be better off in a pond, I just gotta get her through winter, and a more than likely very cold spring (Warmer winter tends to mean all our snow will be in spring.. Colorado really only has two seasons, Summer and winter, maybe a hint of fall in there, but never truly spring, haha)

[KaytanaPhoenix]

Just got onto Craigslist and found several 10-30 gallon tanks for not much! Some of them have the under gravel filter etc with them, so I’ll look into gettin that. Gonna find out if the apt complex has any issues with the tank.. If she can survive in a 10/15 for a couple months will likely look at that size. Would love the 30, but I don’t think that’ll go into the apt well! lol ‘n def not in this house (Small house)

[chrisherself]

Don’t get an undergravel filter!!! I recommend a side hanging one. They are much easier to clean and change out the filter pads. If you get a 10-gallon, I highly recommend this one:

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2754143

I have three of those, that have been running between 2-5 years and have not had issues with them at all. Great filter. 🙂

Your goldfish and bottomfeeder could both use a larger tank. A 10-gallon would be a great start. Before those two can be transferred though, the new tank needs to be ‘cycled’. I’m sure several of us on here could go into detail on that for you. I can when I get back from work, I promise!!

Please keep in mind that you’re looking at an investment of about $25 for the filter and whatever the tank costs on top. I have 3 freshwater planted tanks, and it all started with a “free” goldfish. 😉

[Jennifer]

You are really doing your best for this comet, which is great! I can tell you right now, tens of thousands have a far worse fate than your house, KaytanaPhoenix. People view them as throw away animals, which is sad seeing as they can live 20 years and it’s been proven that they have more going on upstairs, so to speak, than most people think!

I commend you for trying to do well for your fish.

Do you have any pet shops locally? You should be able to take them a water sample. I know the chains (petsmart and petco) will test for free. Independent stores might charge you, though if they value their customer base they should do it for free too. If it was me, I’d take a sample of straight well water (I have well water too) and then a sample of tank water, a few days from now since you just did a water change. The results can help troubleshoot, though based on the other information I can readily guess what is going on.

Tanks that are otherwise stable for months (or even years) can suddenly ‘go over the edge’ and have trouble out of no where when they are biologically overloaded, which yours definitely is as I’m sure you guessed by now. As mentioned previously, goldfish produce nearly twice the load of biological waste as other common aquarium fish, and need surprisingly large volumes of water in order to thrive on the long term. It’s hard to hash out a ‘rule of thumb’ for goldfish because it all depends on the amount of food they are being given, etc… but I would usually suggest to customers that they should consider 10 gallons to each inch of goldfish length. Even this is a hard estimate, because many fancy goldfish are round instead of long… but it’s true that comets are not only long, but they should be active. They are made for cruisin’, vs. the rounder fancy goldfish (ryukins, etc) that are active but not necessarily super speedy.
Because they produce so much waste (and most of it is not in the form of solids, if you catch my drift, but in respiration a byproduct is ammonia) I usually suggest that extra filtration be added… beyond that which is suitable for most tropical fish.

I also understand that you can’t necessarily upgrade your tank RIGHT NOW, so until then, I would suggest:
1. Testing your water, well and tank. Write down the results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate

2. Do a partial water change 1-2 times per WEEK while he is in this little tank. Change 1/3 – 1/2 of the water, but no more! These frequent but smaller water changes can VASTLY improve water quality, especially if, as I suspect, nitrite and nitrates are building up and degrading his water quality, causing his lethargy and fin rot. Changing large volumes of water less often can actually cause more problems, as you are reducing the number of nitrifying bacteria that help the tank by breaking down the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates.
When you do your water change, vacuum your gravel to suck up any uneaten food and fishy poo.
So, if it was my tank, I’d get a good 5 gallon bucket and fill it the night before with well water, let it sit overnight, then use it to do a partial water change twice per week until I got a larger tank (or got him to the pond). That saves you from getting storebought water, which probably isn’t necessary.

3. Feed less, possibly a lot less. Only give him what he can eat within 30 seconds to a minute’s time. Extra is only going to quickly pollute the water as it breaks down into a massive amount of biological mess, and in a small volume of water this can tip the tank from ‘okay’ to ‘ohhh nooooooo’ really quickly.
If you are worried he is not getting enough to eat, you can feed him really small amounts, twice per day.

I would follow this regiment for a week and see how his condition is. If it does not improve, or it worsens, you can consider medication… but the less you add to the water right now, the better. If he can heal up on his own with better water quality, that’d be best. Let us know how he does and if it gets worse, take photos and we can recommend the best course of treatment! 🙂

If you DO get a new tank for him, it’s really important to do a few things:
– Transfer the gravel over without cleaning it!! It’s full of bacteria that you need to start your new tank up.
– For the first few days, transfer your filter over without cleaning or changing it! For the same reason. There is a ton of good bacteria in there. It needs to populate the new tank.
– Transfer at least 1/3 of the old tank water over, if you can.
-Feed your fish very, very sparingly for the first two weeks.

Once the new tank is running smoothly for at least a week, do your first partial water change, and then a week later you can do your first filter cleaning.

In closing, your bottom feeder is actually a “Chinese Algae Eater”, Gyrinocheilus aymonieri but the name is very misleading, because they usually only eat a little algae when they are young, and then usually stop all together. They are known for being aggressive, especially to one another, and love to eat the slime coat and sometimes into the sides of larger fish. They can get large too. Here is more information: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/profiles/chinese-algae-eater/
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myfish/43-Chinese_Algae_Eater_Gyrinocheilus_aymonieri.html

I hated selling them to people, because overall they are not a good fish for most home aquariums. They are regularly stocked at chain pet shops because they are very cheap to get and they can sell them as an algae eating fish. I was always fighting with my manager over them ordering them.

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
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[Jennifer]

Don’t get an undergravel filter!!! I recommend a side hanging one. They are much easier to clean and change out the filter pads. If you get a 10-gallon, I highly recommend this one:

Hang on top filters pack the best punch for the price!! The best are canisters, but if you aren’t gonna be keeping fish for a long while, the investment probably isn’t worth it. If the price is a sticking point, buy several smaller filters (e.g. for a ten gallon, I’d purchase one rated for 20 gallons OR if it’s cheaper, buy two 10 gallon units). I regularly had customers save money by buying the cheaper 10-gallon units, and having more than one running at once. Often two 10-gallon units was cheaper than a single 20-gallon filter.

Undergravel filters can work, but the simple fact is that people buy them because they are cheap, but then the tank crashes. Undergravel filters require you to actively maintain them, and they rely almost entirely on biological filtration and frequent gravel vacuuming, and testing the water often to make sure things stay balanced. They are what I’d consider to be an ‘advanced’ filtration method, which makes the fact that pet shops sell them to beginners so stupid! So much of the fish and pet trade is ridiculous.
For your situation, please don’t use an undergravel filter. It will cause you more grief than it’s worth!

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
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[chrisherself]

Kaytana, everything Jen said is right on the money IMO. 🙂

You really are a sweety for wanting your fish to be happy and healthy!

[Purplecat]

I second everything Nam said…and will say that if you look into new filtration, especially HOB (hang over back) filters…..Aqua Clear filters are awesome.

I run my 125 gal with two AC 110s.

Checking your nitrate and nitrite levels, as well as ammonia levels has become a lot simpler since they developed test strips for it. Tetra Easystrips are pretty good, and you just dunk them in the water, swish for ten seconds then check a chart for your levels at about the 30 sec mark.

that’s a big bottle…they come in smaller amounts, but still it’s not a bad cost overall.

[Wampus Dragon]

I only run undergravel filters myself as an outlet for my powerheads that I use to create currents. Otherwise I use canisters. A good magnum filter can be used for almost anything.

[KaytanaPhoenix]

Thank you so much everyone! I do have petsmart/petco “local” (Anything “local” is 30 miles away, lol But they’re larger cities (Greeley, Co. Fort Collins, Co and Cheyenne, Wy)) So I will get samples of the water in.

I’m having my bf check up on the apt to see if we can have a tank there… that would make this easier on me, since I’m planning on spending more time there (It’s 65 miles away, the move up here wasn’t my idea) My family takes care of the fish when I’m not here.. but they leave most of the work to me, I’ll try to get them to do some minor water changes for me, or find out if any friends will help me out or something..

I will def get over the top filters too! Thanks for lettin me know with that, I wasn’t precisely looking forward to under gravel but figured that was the better setup..

I do vacuum the gravel when I do water changes to clean up the solid waste and any leftover food. When the fish was active, between the Chinese algae eater and my Comet they ate it all up without any issue (They actually shared a single wafer pretty well too) They got one wafer every other day, sometimes half a wafer on the ‘off’ day if the comet was begging for it, lol. – Sounds of things this particular algae eater is an exception to the rule and the other was typical.. and the algae eaters, when first put into the tank got rid of he algae that was on the glass in no time flat and I haven’t had an issue with it since.. though he (she? it? lol) does have a spot on the lil pylons thing in there that it likes to hide out at, but it comes out pretty often too..

As for ‘throw away’ animals.. People who think “It’s just fish” … “It’s just a dog” etc irritate me.. ‘n my usual response to them is “You’re *just* a human”
I truly believe that if someone is going to take on the responsibility of an animal that it is a persons obligation to take the best care of that animal (Be it big or small) as possible, and if they cannot, find someone who will (ie. Friend with a pond! lol) I think it is incredible that this fish can live to be 20! and want to give her the best chance I can at reaching that! 🙂 ‘n when she’s not in rough condition like she is now, she’s quite pretty!
I grew up with animals, I love them and have great appreciation for them.. ‘n I tend to ignore the common thought of animals intelligence and go with what we see! Most say goldfish are very stupid and remember nothing. I say she remembers where her food was stored and begs for it.. and she had a tendency to come to wherever I lightly tapped on the glass.. since as I walk by the tank I’ll tap the glass randomly, sorta a ‘saying hi’ thing (I realize the fish likely didn’t realize that was what it was, but I’m social with my animals.. apparently even my fish, haha) and before long I noticed she’d actually come swimming over to where I was tapping. It’s silly, but I had an appreciation for it 🙂

Anywho.. now I’m just rambling XD Easy for me to do when talking about animals!

[KaytanaPhoenix]

So my mom decided to look up fin rot info.. found out about an antibiotic that’s all natural that she thinks we should probably get? I’m concerned with how quickly that has affected her fins, that trying without an antibiotic would maybe take too long? I could get the name of it, if need be…
From the list of possible causes, we figure a combo of cooler water (Apparently cooler water is what the fin rot prefers?) and that wafer that didn’t get eaten and made the tank all ick… so warming the water some seems to be a good thing, and keeping a close eye on the food to keep it from turning the tank ick (Now since my fish isn’t swimming down to eat the wafers, would it be wise to look into a food that floats? and hope that entices her to eat? if so, what would be best?)

I pulled some water to have tested and then did a very minor water change today, about 1/3… Would it be wise to get test strips to keep tabs on the water? Do more frequent changes until it seems cleaner and then take it to two or three light changes a week? Until I find out about a tank at my bfs/get a larger tank someplace…

I think she’s feeling a lil better already. She isn’t swimming around the tank much at all yet, but she’s moving a lot more in her lil corner.. sorta swimming in place, lol. If the water was ‘bad’ would that be a cause for her not swimming around much and staying closer to the top? She isn’t grabbing breaths above water surface (That was the sign to get an air pump) and she’ll swim low when she is swimming around the tank, on the rare occasion.. but she stays at the top when in that corner..

–Edit: So I’ve been told she’s done this a few times, though I haven’t seen it till tonight. When she came out to swim around some, she almost seemed panicked.. darting around, running into the glass, even once jumped a lil out of her water.. then she calmed, swam around a lil then went back into her corner.. I’ve never seen her do this before unprovoked–

(Thank you again you guys! I really owe you for so much helpful info! I wish I had thought to ask here earlier and caught this sooner!!)

[Jennifer]

Comets generally do best at a temperature of 65 – 72° F.
It’s true that fin rot seems to favor lower temperatures for long finned fish, however, bear in mind the following…
Temperature fluctuation– that is, the temperature raising lowering more than a few degrees each day– actually cause MORE problems than a stable but less ideal temperature.
What I mean is that a fish will have less stress and be less disease prone if its temperature is constant, even if it’s not the perfect temperature.
A fish that has wild changes in temperature is far more likely to be stressed.

That said, fin rot is caused by water conditions 100% of the time. Absolutely correct the water conditions before anything else, or you will not make any headway with treatment.

If you are able, yes, do get a water test kit. Right now it’s most important to watch your Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate. pH can be important too… if your water is too acidic, it can be killing the GOOD bacteria that break down the ammonia and nitrites. If these GOOD bacteria can’t thrive, you will always have nasty water conditions, even if you have a good filter.
The test strips are very convenient, but less accurate than the test tube type of water test, just as an aside. They are also more expensive, on the long term.

So fin rot as displayed by ragged edges (instead of just overall white melting fins) is generally caused by gram-negative bacteria. We will call them the bad bacteria, though honestly they often exist in any water, just in tiny amounts that the fish’s natural system fights off with no problem.. just like a healthy immune system should.

Treating tanks with an antibiotic is a double-edged sword. Broad spectrum antibiotics will kill not only the bad bacteria, but also the good bacteria that you MUST have to break down the fish’s waste, both solid and from respiration. Here’s where it gets messy, and why treating a tank can sometimes cause it to crash worse.

I am providing the following information in hopes that it helps! I am not trying to preach. I am just letting you know what I saw VERY frequently when I worked with customers with fish tanks.

Here is what I saw my customers do, and more times than I could count:
1. For whatever reason, water conditions deteriorate.
2. Fish becomes ill with fin rot, fungus, or septicemia.
3. Antibiotics are administered to the tank.
4. Fish seems to start recovering.
5. Tank crashes (and often the fish dies).

This can be really baffling until you understand what has happened, biologically… and invisibly. What really happened was probably:
1. Water conditions are bad. Reasons include: biological overload, and/or too much food, and/or not enough small water changes, and/or buildup of organic matter in the tank, and/or tank is too new and has no beneficial nitrifying bacteria yet
2. Ammonia, and/or nitrites and/or nitrates build up in the water due to one or more of the above. These are harmful (ammonia and nitrite is harmful in small amounts, nitrates are harmful in large amounts) chemicals to the fish and greatly weaken the fish’s immune system.
The abundance of free nitrogen in the form of nitrites and nitrates also can cause bad bacteria and such to multiply.
3. With a weakened immune system, the fish cannot fight off infection. In addition to the infection, he is not feeling well. Ammonia can burn the sensitive gill tissue. The fish acts lethargic.
4. An owner, with the best of intentions, puts an antibiotic in the tank. This treatment kills off a lot of the bad bacteria, and the fish experiences temporary relief! It may seem to be recovering, and indeed it probably is. However, the water conditions are now being further degraded, accidentally.
5. Either A. The antibiotic remains in the water, reducing the good bacteria that break down the ammonia, nitrite, nitrate… and one or more of these levels suddenly spike (often made much worse when the owner sees the fish recovering, and then feeds it a lot!) which do the fish in and crash the tank since the fish is already stressed from the illness, or, B. The antibiotic course runs in the tank, but the good bacteria are also reduced. The fish survives, but once the antibiotics are gone from the water, the bad water conditions cause the ailment (bad bacteria) to suddenly flourish a second time! This overwhelms the fish and it dies.

I cannot tell you how often I saw 5.B. occurring. 🙁 And it’s incredibly frustrating to fishkeepers, since they see the fish getting better, then WHAM! What happened?? It got sick all over again!

I’m NOT trying to scare you!!!
I know: It seems like you’re darned if you do and darned if you don’t! Which isn’t what I’m trying to say… I’m trying to say that correcting the water quality is #1 first priority no matter what. It’s the BIGGEST difference you can make for this problem, hands down, no contest. And I’m also saying that treatment should be administered only if water quality correction is not helping right away. Treatment is good, if– like in people– it’s only given when it’s necessary for recovery.

If you do treat, consider Triple Sulfa, Chloramphenicol, Minocycline, or Tetracycline, as they are all effective against gram-negative bacteria. Note that Erythromycin should never be used in combo with these antibiotics, as they can as a team totally wipe out your good bacteria. Also, if you have very hard water with a lot of calcium, the ‘cyclines’ are much less effective.
Here is more in depth reading into the medications: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumMedication2.html
That link is very useful once you know your water conditions, incliding GH and KH.

Follow the instructions on the package, as different companies pack these in different ways and concentrations.
During treatment, always remove any carbon in your filter. If you are using cartridges, either take it out and empty the carbon out, or if it’s a sealed unit, just take it out entirely. You can put a little bit of the plain batting in (you can get this at the pet store in a bag) just to aid in particle collection in the interim.
After treatment, do a series of small partial water changes and most importantly, monitor your water by testing during and after treatment. I recommend Melafix in the lowest recommended dosage AFTER treatment, as it really does help promote healing of damaged fins.

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
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[Jennifer]

Oh! Also, the panicked ‘zooming’ is something that fish have a tendency to do when something is not right. It’s hard to know if she is reacting to the water, or to the fin rot. Usually when they dart around ‘blindly’ in a way that is unusual for them, something is irritating them… either water conditions burning the gills, or a physical irritation or pain elsewhere.

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[KaytanaPhoenix]

So the zooming before was probably water… the zooming now is probably fins irritating her…

My mom thinks she has tetracycline (Shes been saying all morning she’ll look for it, but still hasn’t looked, I don’t think, lol), so I’m just not sure which (According to a quick glance at your link there are different kinds) but if you think water changes, to get the water figured out is best above all else, I will leave the antibiotic as a last resort.. and will definitely be sure to get the right one if it comes to that!
I realize you’re not trying to scare me or anything, the best move is an informed move so all info you’re sharing is being well absorbed 🙂

I’m definitely not going to do anything other than minor water changes ’till I can get the water tested…

[Jennifer]

Good luck!! Also, if your mom has some, make sure it’s not old and expired. Expired tetracycline can release toxins into the water.

Volunteer mod- I'm here to help! Email me for the best response: nambroth at gmail.com
My art: featherdust.com

[KaytanaPhoenix]

Good luck!! Also, if your mom has some, make sure it’s not old and expired. Expired tetracycline can release toxins into the water.

Good to know! 🙂 I’m gonna try to get out and get supplies tomorrow for my fish! (Filter cartridges, since the last of the pack went in yesterday, test kit, and possibly food that floats (Your thoughts on that idea?)
Too windy to go today.. but good news! *I hope*, she was swimming around her tank non-frantic today! 🙂 not a lot, but more than usual!

We figure it would be smart to get her recovering and take good care of this tank right at the moment before putting her through the shock of a tank change, but soon as she seems clear enough for it, she’s gettin a bigger tank!

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